Thank you for these insights. I am grateful for your honest clarity about the objective horror of what we are seeing the Israeli military do in Gaza.
Yes. The Us-Them thinking is indeed at the root of the conflict, and the fuel that perpetuates its maddening growth.
Yes. Othering, dehumanisation, and devaluation of human life. These are the means and the self-perpetuating results. We need new paradigms that nourish us and embrace our humanity and the humanity of all. Compassion. Connection. Empathy.
And somehow we need to confront dark and evil forces that seem to compel "good people to participate in terrible things."
I am reminded of a famous narration (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad.
---------------------
The Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) is reported to have said,
"Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."
His companions asked, "O Messenger of God (ﷺ), we help him when he is oppressed, but how can we help him when he is an oppressor?”
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "By taking hold of his hands."
(Source: Sahih al-Bukhari 2444)
---------------------
Thank you for your sincere and heart-centered wisdom. Keep going. We are taking benefit from you. May we all find our full healing and humanity. 🙏🤲
"Us-them patterning is older than history." I would have agreed with that until today, when this striking comment made me think again:
"I've become increasingly convinced over my adult lifetime that the stories we tell in fiction are part of why we're so fucked as a culture when it comes to understanding social problems, and social change. I'm referring to, at the broadest level, the idea that storytelling is a conflict between not just a protagonist and an antagonist, but a hero and a villain. We tend to think of this as a 'tale as old as time' - but when you look at a lot of the earliest fictional works - things like the Iliad, or the Epic of Gilgamesh - you don't see a 'bad guy.' Deeply nuanced conflicts where neither side was wholly morally right seems to be the foundation of human storytelling, and the morally simplistic 'good vs. evil' stories came much later. We learned, culturally, to be much dumber than we should have been." ~ Karl Zimmerman
Huh. So maybe we're captive to a degenerate form of storytelling. If so, where are the roots of this cultural error?
Hi Charles and all, I admit, I am not sure anymore that humans will survive into the next century. I thought for many years that the Great Turning would spread and humans would, in the end, redeem ourselves.... But it doesn't look so good. I just hope that my children and grandchildren can find some opportunities for growth and good times despite the madness and destruction going on, and they don't get caught up in it. And I hope that LIFE survives on earth, it's so beautiful here. If humans are going to self-destruct because of our own lower levels of consciousness, this does make me sad, because it feels like we do have flashes of insight into a more peaceful and simple way to live, but just not quite enough to go around. Perhaps life will learn from our tragic silliness and evolve again with new species that can find and hold onto a higher awareness alongside technologies and cultural practices that make more sense and nourish life.
What I dread is not human extinction. It is even worse -- that we continue to extinguish nature until there is nothing left, no more whales, no more lightning bugs, no more trees, no more seals or fish... earth turned into a giant strip mine and waste dump, a toxic atmosphere, while we humans have retreated into a digital VR world.
I don't think the threat of extinction will save us. i think we have to choose life.
I feel the same. When I was participating in NAAS during the "sanity" project I got a lot of pushback for feeling this way. In a breakout group I was once lectured by "Amanda" about how this is a "misguided" and "defeatist" way to feel. Apparently the "ET's" are going to save us. So chin up, I'm sure it's all gonna be A.O.K. 🙄
My God. The slow, deep, out-breath of a thank you that flowed from the pit of my stomach as you recognised that personal "primal insecurity" at the very heart of the us-them pattern 🙏
"Maybe we have got it backwards.
Maybe we are the shitty people.
Maybe we are less than fully human, deficient in humanity’s essential qualities."
Seeing the voice of this fear so plainly by the light of your words is an almost painful release to me. This fear has shaped my life in so many ways, stopping me from just being the full me I know inside so so many times. Thank you for the bravery to stare it straight in the face and lay it out completely bare and vulnerable for us to see too. Just like that, I feel it moving on at last 🫶
Thank you Charles for your constant reminder that things are more complicated than they seem. It feels like we need days and months of being told again and again to let go of this us-them story that we grew up into in every part of our religion and culture.
As an Israeli I feel the need to be reminded of this on a daily basis. My father is one of the kindest people you’ll ever meet who will smile and speak openly with the cashier at the supermarket and the cleaning man on the street. But when it comes to Palestinians he is not able to see them as humans who deserve the rights and freedom that he has.
My path of healing has led me to look at the parts of myself that were in the Israeli army for four and a half years and not condemn myself for the evil I took part of even though it is clear to me today that the army I was sold that is the most moral army in the world is far from it.
I try when I can to humanize Palestinians in the eyes of Israelis and also to keep humanizing us Israelis in the eyes of those watching us from around the world. My story is one of many and in this time I feel that the story of men and especially soldiers who have been put in the front line willingly or not, need to be seen and heard and forgiven and held and welcomed back into society with an understanding that I could have easily been in their place.
I spoke in a podcast a couple years ago before the genocide in Gaza started in its current form and I called the chapter
‘When good people do bad things’
Sharing a similar line to Charles’s about myself being a good person who still served in an army that performed evil acts.
There are other stories there of Israelis who chose a different path and if you need to hear more humane voices of Israelis please listen to the many stories on Disillusioned.
Many of those voices are my friends who are sometimes going back and dehumanizing other Israelis or even their past selves and don’t always have to ability to make a deep shift and move out of the us and them thinking.
I don't think Hamasniks are shitty people in general. I don't think Nazis were shitty people either, or Netanyahu and his right wing coalition are shitty people. But I do think that Hamas and other JIhadists have to be incapacitated so that they can't murder anyone anymore (and sure, Bibi also has to be incapacitated, but that will be much easier once Hamas is). I don't think just killing them is enough, although it is necessary. There needs to be deprogramming from the death cult, so that they have other meaning in their lives besides slaughtering jews. Before they can have a state, they have to want life, for themselves, their children and other people who are not muslim.
I also have the same reaction you have to "how could they do this"? My reaction is "how can liberals believe that Hamas will respond to any good faith measures from anyone, especially after October 7th"? The only explanation I can come up with is some kind of high cost signaling that shows you are a good member of the liberal ingroup. The more ridiculous the belief, the higher the cognitive cost, and the more trustworthy a group member you are, similar to most religions.
I thought Hamas was the only death cult, but now I see that liberals who believe Hamas can be swayed or negotiated with are also a death cult, because that belief is suicidal. You would not last a week in Gaza under Hamas, dear Charles. Not because they are shitty or evil. But because they don't share your values.
Wow. You are very sure about what "Hamas" believes and what their values are. Where exactly did you get that from?
Who is "Hamas" to you? What exactly is this "death cult" you speak of? As you answer that, you might want to check if there are the exact same "bad guys" or "bad ideas" on "the other side."
And you are sure that is only "they" who need "deprogramming." Is it possible you might need some too? Maybe? 🙂
You can read what Hamas wants in both their charters. The pre 1988 one is even more explicit about genociding Jews than the 1988 one, which is more subtel, but there is no talk of two states, only one Islamic one, so presumably Jews have to be genocided. And their actions are totally consistent with what they say. They also say it on Palestinian TV, and teach it in Palestinian schools.
I used to believe, before October 7th that the reason Jihadists were genocidal was because of oppresion. I do not believe that anymore. I do believe they are oppressed because they are genocidal, and that oppression is only a small factor in their murderousness.
Sure, it is possible that I need deprogramming, but it already happened on October 7th. Being very high in openness trait, I am always open to changing my mind, so perhaps it could happen again?
Interesting. You probably should check out the 2017 updated Hamas charter, where they embrace the two-state framework, and reject the notion of fighting against the Jewish people. (While you are at it, you might check out the Likud charter too.)
You declare "they" talk of genociding Jews on Palestinian TV and on Palestinian schools. Who is "they?" ALL Palestinian leaders and TV personalities? ALL Palestinian school teachers? Have you seen what "they" say about Arabs on Israeli TV and in some Israeli schools? We could trade disturbing video clips, but I'd hope we don't really need to.
Who is a "Jihadist" to you? I'll also repeat my earlier question to you, Who is "Hamas" to you? Sounds like you are saying "they" are all "genocidal". Is that by nature? By religion?
Since you are "high in openness trait," I would invite you to be open to the notion that there are a range of human beings in the simple categories you are declaring. There are even "factions" within Hamas, that strongly disagree about principles, tactics, ethics, religious principles, etc.
I'll also invite you to be open to consider that the information you have about Hamas, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians, Israelis, and Jews is limited and may have some biases and blindspots. Let's see if we can keep growing and learning in understanding our brothers and sisters in humanity. 😊
No, I have checked out a while ago the 2017 charter and it does NOT embrace, not even hint at a 2 state solution. I made an error above, I should have said pre 2017, not pre 1988 (that was original charter).
There is a Likkud charter? That calls for genocide of Palestinians? I'll check it out if it exists and does that. Most Israelis are not for genociding anyone. Not even most Likkudniks.
No, not ALL palestinian leaders are genocidal (by religion, philosophy and by nurture, not by nature. And of course there are peaceful muslims, like most sufis). I think Marwan Barghouti might be genuinely interested in peace with Israelis, not sure. But so far Hamas has about 80% support among Palestinians. Maybe it went down lately? Haven't checked. Dissenters get shot or thrown off roofs, so that's a mechanism for keeping up the popular support for Hamas.
Of course I don't know every Hamasnik. If there are peaceful ones, I'd like to know them. Every thing I've see about them points to a death cult.
If there were Palestinians in Gaza or West Bank who could see Israelis like Charles sees everyone, we should find them in their poets. I could not find even one poem by a Palestinian who sees the humanity of Israelis, whereas there are several poems by Israelis who acknowledge the humanity of Palestinians. I found one poem that came close, where the author decided he wouldn't want to kill a soldier if the soldier had a family or community. And no the fact that Palestinians are oppressed and Israelis are not (they are only brutally murdered) does not explain this. Mandela was able to transcend his oppression and see the humanity of the SA whites.
So I appreciate your and Charle's good heart, but it fails when it comes to dealing with death cults. It's a very human thing, the death cult. Of course they are our brothers and sisters. But we can't let them kill us, can we?
Which ones? Maybe you missed my answers? Let's keep trying. I said not ALL in reference to your first question.
"Who is Hamas to me?" I didn't answer explicitly, only implicitly, you're right. Since I don't know Hamasniks personally, I only know their charter, and what I've seen on Palestinian TV. And also what I HAVEN'T seen, which is a genuine feeling of compassion and recognition of Israelis' humanity, except from Barghouti.
"Who is they?" In what context? Most of the time I am clear that it's either Palestinians, 80% of Palestinians or most Hamasniks. Be more specific in your question if you want a more specific answer.
"Have I seen what Israelis say about Arabs on Israeli TV and in some Israeli schools?" You're right, I missed answering that. Sorry. No, I haven't since I left Israel about 50 years ago. I know that I was taught tolerance in school and love by my parents towards arabs (one of my best friends was half arab and I stood up for him whenever I could). Though there was some racism from other kids, there was not genocidal hatred. There was also fear of picking up anything that looked like a toy, because it could be a plastic explosive. Fear of arab terrorism was real, but it was not translated to hatred towards arabs. From what I can tell, things haven't changed that much.
Exept for many liberal Israelis (like myself) have realized after October 7th that Hamas is a death cult
You know, this is ostensibly an article about Gaza vs Israel, but I read it as an indictment of my on again, off again lover versus me.
When we fight, he others and demeans me. He tries to make me less than so that he can justify unleashing all of his rage on me.
But while I see this ugliness in him, I also know why he is so violent, and it is exactly as Charles has said: he is desperately afraid that if it is, in fact, his fault that some Bad Thing has happened, that he will be cast out of the circle of love, left to fend for himself, by himself, because he deserves to be punished for his rottenness. In Charles' words, he is sure that he is one of the Shitty People, and he devotes the entirety of his life force to proving to himself wrong.
Irony is that no one has accused him but that he has judged himself. And no one is convinced by his performance of goodness either, especially himself.
I knew, Charles, that you were gonna come through for me. I needed your words today, and your guidance. You have given a new and grander meaning to my pathetic struggles to either love or leave this man. I know you, I think, a little, and you would tell me that my stubborn refusal to see him as a Shitty Person despite the abuse he reigns down on me strengthens the field of peace that will one day enfold Israel, Gaza, and the rest of our world.
Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you for seeing me, though you had no idea and we've never met.
These couple of sentences are the perfect summary of your entire essay: “Sociopathic and narcissistic leaders reflect back to us, in extreme form, the everyday dehumanization of those we judge. They are more symptom than cause of the horrors they preside over.”
Garbage in, garbage out. If you don’t like what you see, change yourself, not the mirror. Stop following sociopathic and narcissistic “leaders”.
Yep. In our country (USA) we live with the artifacts of two of the greatest racial atrocities in history: the extermination of indigenous people and the compulsory immigration and enslavement of the indigenous people of Africa. To this day we perpetuate the segregation of one group (this continent's indigenous people) and agruably the repression of the other. Plenty of "othering" happening right here at home. Maybe rather than getting all worked up about what's happening half a world away we should pay more attention to the atrocities happening right here in our own communities. As Jesus also said, maybe we shouldn't point out the mote in our brother's eye, but not see the log in our own eye.
Yes, totally, and the situation in Israel is almost the opposite of both of these, once you dig into it, but I can't blame people for trying to fit Israel/Palestine into the Procrustean bed of what they know happened here.
Also, this is another explanation of why american liberals are so obsessed with Israel (compared to the 10x or more atrocities happening in other muslim nations against muslims): you guys feel guilty about what your ancestors did to native americans and afro-americans and are projecting that guilt onto Israel, because Israel is more like you than muslim countries. And there is no clear underdog in those other countries, and liberals believe the underdog is always right.
1. Settlers in america or SA mostly thought of natives as inferior. Settlers in Palestine mostly thought of natives as equals (not to be exploited in any way), because they were mostly socialists (with a few notable exceptions that initially did not have much influence on relations with the natives, but unfortunately later did, thinking here of Jabotinsky).
2. Settlers in new world or SA were representing England and Holland, two colonial empires, and wanted to extract resources for the home empire. Settlers in Israel were mostly socialist refugees (not just from Europe, but also from muslim counties) who just wanted to not be killed and didn't ever steal or displace anyone, and had no home colonial empire to pump resources towards. Displacement only happened after a genocidal war (by a bunch of arab nations) was thwarted. And much of the displacement was due to arab leaders telling arabs to "temporarily, until Jews are genocided", leave.
3. The natives in america (not sure about SA) were initially mostly welcoming and friendly. The natives in Palestine were initially mostly hostile and murderous (before any oppression of them by Jews happened).
4. The settlers in both america and SA had no previous claim to the land they were coming to. The settlers in Palestine had an old but deeply meaningful claim, after being displaced by several colonialist empires.
Both are intimately connected. It is the same story, at bottom, the story of othering. I write a lot about Palestine because genocide is in progress there right now. Repairing the legacy of genocide is another matter, certainly worthy of attention.
The legacy of genocide? The native people of the USA are still in camps! We actively "other" them to the point of being so demoralized that they literally die from broken hearts. The Palestine/Israel situation is not to be condoned, but I wonder if fixating on it so much is a means of distraction from the "othering" we ourselves participate in. "Those people over there in the middle east are bad" is in and of itself a form of "othering".
I don't think it is a distraction. It is part of the same phenomenon, and its lessons apply here too. But i wouldn't say that genocide is in progress now against North America's indigenous, because to use that word too broadly renders it useless. I would say instead that a lot of repair work is needed to addressed the systematized poverty and degradation that has been frozen in place on the reservations. Active, deliberate genocidal and culture-cidal policies (such as the forced sterilization of Native women, and the suppression of their languages) continued well into the 1960s. Thankfully, those policies have ended, yet we have not yet come, as a society, to a full reckoning of the damage already done and yet unhealed. Instead, it is swept aside and permitted to fester, out of sight, out of mind, on the reservations and elsewhere. It is another expression of othering, and just because I am writing about Palestine doesn't mean that I think it is not important.
I have to say “too little too late,” Charles. I’ve been pretty saddened by your lack of focus on this ongoing genocide — happening pretty obviously for 1.5 years now. Where were you? It's been obvious since the opening bomb salvos that Israel was intent on genocide and full ethnic cleansing. "Genocide" does not require intending to or actually killing all Gazans -- it requires legally the intent to destroy Gazans as a political or cultural entity. And that's been very clear for some time now. South Africa filed a genocide claim at the ICC a few months after Oct 7, summarizing the many many statements from Israeli leaders making very clear their intentions.
Are you being facetious? I have written about it again and again ever since Oct. 2023. In fact, fully half of my essays have been on this topic. I'm confused by this comment. Most people say I write about it too much, not too little.
I have seen very little from you on this! I'll go back again and check but I looked back at your pieces and I get your notification emails and I've seen very little from you on this. If I'm wrong I'll remove my comment and apologize. I don't think you've called this the obvious genocide that it is in any of your pieces before this one -- and I just used your website search function to look for "genocide." The same search function shows no pieces before this one actually labeling what Israel is doing genocide. And I don't see any pieces devoted to looking at what Israel is doing specifically in Gaza, with OUR taxpayer dollars, and calling for the funding and the horror to stop. Am I missing pieces?
I generally agree with your exhortations to avoid othering and further separation. But when that exhortation extends to not calling out such extreme crimes as genocide and ethnic cleansing, particularly those funded with OUR taxpayer dollars and OUR diplomatic cover, I'm sorry but we need to call these kinds of things out in very clear terms, while still recognizing the humanity of even the perpetrators of these heinous crimes.
Maybe I didn't use the specific word "genocide" in my writing, choosing instead "crimes against humanity," "mass murder," "heinous crimes," "ethnic cleansing," "slaughter," "war crimes," "horrors," and so forth. It is a very polarizing word that means different things to different people, and I wanted to reach people who would have been turned off by what "genocide" signals about my allegiance to the Palestinian cause. But I have certainly not been silent on this issue. Here are the substack posts I made directly on the topic after Oct. 7:
If we really want it to stop
Hamas, Israel, and the Devil on my Shoulder
In my Name, I Want no Vengeance
A story told a hundred thousand times
War is always justified
Friends don’t let friends destroy themselves
How to heal the wound of Gaza
The snipers are the lucky ones
I also wrote on Palestine before Oct. 7: "Palestine and the Politics of Guilt by Association"
These are in addition to numerous other essays that aren't directly about Gaza. I mention Gaza a lot because I think it is important to keep the issue visible. I have never sought to minimize the extent of what is happening there. And I have done all this at considerable personal cost. I lost the confidence of RFK Jr., for instance, sidelining myself in the campaign leadership. And I lost thousands upon thousands of subscribers. Yes, these "personal costs" are tiny compared to what many activists endure, let alone the Palestinians themselves, so I am not claiming any special courage. But still, if you want to lecture someone about complicity in the face of genocide you should find another target.
Thanks Charles. Right on with us vs. them at cause. Do we have the courage to go deep and face the pain of separation? Face the wound? Do the shadow work? Take back our projections and judgements? Open to the heart of compassion? It seems to me that's the way to healing and human evolution. I'm getting a lot there from the Cosmic Matrix podcast.
Thank you. Question. I get no "shitty people", beautiful, I'm lovingly reminded of James Carse. I'm torn about still "them-ing" sociopaths. Please help me handle this paradox.
Not suggesting its wrong, wondering how to sit with it.
I guess an optimistic view is that there are just too damn many humans for good ecological balance, and it gives us the illusion that we are above nature somehow, so.... rather than dying naturally through starvation as species normally would when that happens, because our technologies protect us from that most of the time, instead, we are killing ourselves in droves through different forms of mental illness (war, addiction) and being killed off by virus' and the illnesses stemming from chemical farming and poisoning the land and waters..... Basically we have shit where we eat, which all species normally know not to do, but we have lost that awareness, because of the side effects of our sheer numbers.... SO the earth is just finding balance it needs, and in a few hundred years, there will be FAR FEWER humans, and then we will find ecological harmony and live within the sustainable practices because we will have to, and then all will be better again.
Ecological imbalance isn't because there are too many of us. It is because of how we are relating to nature. Earth could support 20 billion people if we all lived the lifestyle of a traditional Bangladeshi villager, for example. I went through the argument in my Climate book. And if everyone lived the lifestyle of an affluent North American, the planet would be screwed.
Charles,
Thank you for these insights. I am grateful for your honest clarity about the objective horror of what we are seeing the Israeli military do in Gaza.
Yes. The Us-Them thinking is indeed at the root of the conflict, and the fuel that perpetuates its maddening growth.
Yes. Othering, dehumanisation, and devaluation of human life. These are the means and the self-perpetuating results. We need new paradigms that nourish us and embrace our humanity and the humanity of all. Compassion. Connection. Empathy.
And somehow we need to confront dark and evil forces that seem to compel "good people to participate in terrible things."
I am reminded of a famous narration (hadith) of the Prophet Muhammad.
---------------------
The Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) is reported to have said,
"Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed."
His companions asked, "O Messenger of God (ﷺ), we help him when he is oppressed, but how can we help him when he is an oppressor?”
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "By taking hold of his hands."
(Source: Sahih al-Bukhari 2444)
---------------------
Thank you for your sincere and heart-centered wisdom. Keep going. We are taking benefit from you. May we all find our full healing and humanity. 🙏🤲
"Us-them patterning is older than history." I would have agreed with that until today, when this striking comment made me think again:
"I've become increasingly convinced over my adult lifetime that the stories we tell in fiction are part of why we're so fucked as a culture when it comes to understanding social problems, and social change. I'm referring to, at the broadest level, the idea that storytelling is a conflict between not just a protagonist and an antagonist, but a hero and a villain. We tend to think of this as a 'tale as old as time' - but when you look at a lot of the earliest fictional works - things like the Iliad, or the Epic of Gilgamesh - you don't see a 'bad guy.' Deeply nuanced conflicts where neither side was wholly morally right seems to be the foundation of human storytelling, and the morally simplistic 'good vs. evil' stories came much later. We learned, culturally, to be much dumber than we should have been." ~ Karl Zimmerman
Huh. So maybe we're captive to a degenerate form of storytelling. If so, where are the roots of this cultural error?
https://open.substack.com/pub/freddiedeboer/p/i-guess-i-dont-care-very-much-about?r=16gkv&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=135804892
The concepts of good and evil emerged over a long span of time. But blood feuds and reciprocal violence predate civilization. As does war.
It’s easy to imagine that’s why some of us ever left Africa.
Yes, Annie! (shameless plug alert) It's part of what inspired me to write this novel...https://www.jessekjohnson.com
😮
Hi Charles and all, I admit, I am not sure anymore that humans will survive into the next century. I thought for many years that the Great Turning would spread and humans would, in the end, redeem ourselves.... But it doesn't look so good. I just hope that my children and grandchildren can find some opportunities for growth and good times despite the madness and destruction going on, and they don't get caught up in it. And I hope that LIFE survives on earth, it's so beautiful here. If humans are going to self-destruct because of our own lower levels of consciousness, this does make me sad, because it feels like we do have flashes of insight into a more peaceful and simple way to live, but just not quite enough to go around. Perhaps life will learn from our tragic silliness and evolve again with new species that can find and hold onto a higher awareness alongside technologies and cultural practices that make more sense and nourish life.
What I dread is not human extinction. It is even worse -- that we continue to extinguish nature until there is nothing left, no more whales, no more lightning bugs, no more trees, no more seals or fish... earth turned into a giant strip mine and waste dump, a toxic atmosphere, while we humans have retreated into a digital VR world.
I don't think the threat of extinction will save us. i think we have to choose life.
I feel the same. When I was participating in NAAS during the "sanity" project I got a lot of pushback for feeling this way. In a breakout group I was once lectured by "Amanda" about how this is a "misguided" and "defeatist" way to feel. Apparently the "ET's" are going to save us. So chin up, I'm sure it's all gonna be A.O.K. 🙄
FYI I have filed a lawsuit against the US government claiming exemption from paying taxes for genocide in three countries (Yemen, Gaza, Sudan). It's a quixotic quest at best, but you never know, it may succeed. https://tamhunt.medium.com/why-im-suing-to-reclaim-our-republic-5d0f357feb09
My God. The slow, deep, out-breath of a thank you that flowed from the pit of my stomach as you recognised that personal "primal insecurity" at the very heart of the us-them pattern 🙏
"Maybe we have got it backwards.
Maybe we are the shitty people.
Maybe we are less than fully human, deficient in humanity’s essential qualities."
Seeing the voice of this fear so plainly by the light of your words is an almost painful release to me. This fear has shaped my life in so many ways, stopping me from just being the full me I know inside so so many times. Thank you for the bravery to stare it straight in the face and lay it out completely bare and vulnerable for us to see too. Just like that, I feel it moving on at last 🫶
Thank you Charles for your constant reminder that things are more complicated than they seem. It feels like we need days and months of being told again and again to let go of this us-them story that we grew up into in every part of our religion and culture.
As an Israeli I feel the need to be reminded of this on a daily basis. My father is one of the kindest people you’ll ever meet who will smile and speak openly with the cashier at the supermarket and the cleaning man on the street. But when it comes to Palestinians he is not able to see them as humans who deserve the rights and freedom that he has.
My path of healing has led me to look at the parts of myself that were in the Israeli army for four and a half years and not condemn myself for the evil I took part of even though it is clear to me today that the army I was sold that is the most moral army in the world is far from it.
I try when I can to humanize Palestinians in the eyes of Israelis and also to keep humanizing us Israelis in the eyes of those watching us from around the world. My story is one of many and in this time I feel that the story of men and especially soldiers who have been put in the front line willingly or not, need to be seen and heard and forgiven and held and welcomed back into society with an understanding that I could have easily been in their place.
I spoke in a podcast a couple years ago before the genocide in Gaza started in its current form and I called the chapter
‘When good people do bad things’
Sharing a similar line to Charles’s about myself being a good person who still served in an army that performed evil acts.
There are other stories there of Israelis who chose a different path and if you need to hear more humane voices of Israelis please listen to the many stories on Disillusioned.
Many of those voices are my friends who are sometimes going back and dehumanizing other Israelis or even their past selves and don’t always have to ability to make a deep shift and move out of the us and them thinking.
Still worth a listen in my opinion.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/62gXm0sihoutTsI5egXPAE?si=XdeQOdSOQimD__zm0UzfyA
thank you for your courage
I don't think Hamasniks are shitty people in general. I don't think Nazis were shitty people either, or Netanyahu and his right wing coalition are shitty people. But I do think that Hamas and other JIhadists have to be incapacitated so that they can't murder anyone anymore (and sure, Bibi also has to be incapacitated, but that will be much easier once Hamas is). I don't think just killing them is enough, although it is necessary. There needs to be deprogramming from the death cult, so that they have other meaning in their lives besides slaughtering jews. Before they can have a state, they have to want life, for themselves, their children and other people who are not muslim.
I also have the same reaction you have to "how could they do this"? My reaction is "how can liberals believe that Hamas will respond to any good faith measures from anyone, especially after October 7th"? The only explanation I can come up with is some kind of high cost signaling that shows you are a good member of the liberal ingroup. The more ridiculous the belief, the higher the cognitive cost, and the more trustworthy a group member you are, similar to most religions.
I thought Hamas was the only death cult, but now I see that liberals who believe Hamas can be swayed or negotiated with are also a death cult, because that belief is suicidal. You would not last a week in Gaza under Hamas, dear Charles. Not because they are shitty or evil. But because they don't share your values.
Wow. You are very sure about what "Hamas" believes and what their values are. Where exactly did you get that from?
Who is "Hamas" to you? What exactly is this "death cult" you speak of? As you answer that, you might want to check if there are the exact same "bad guys" or "bad ideas" on "the other side."
And you are sure that is only "they" who need "deprogramming." Is it possible you might need some too? Maybe? 🙂
You can read what Hamas wants in both their charters. The pre 1988 one is even more explicit about genociding Jews than the 1988 one, which is more subtel, but there is no talk of two states, only one Islamic one, so presumably Jews have to be genocided. And their actions are totally consistent with what they say. They also say it on Palestinian TV, and teach it in Palestinian schools.
I used to believe, before October 7th that the reason Jihadists were genocidal was because of oppresion. I do not believe that anymore. I do believe they are oppressed because they are genocidal, and that oppression is only a small factor in their murderousness.
Sure, it is possible that I need deprogramming, but it already happened on October 7th. Being very high in openness trait, I am always open to changing my mind, so perhaps it could happen again?
Interesting. You probably should check out the 2017 updated Hamas charter, where they embrace the two-state framework, and reject the notion of fighting against the Jewish people. (While you are at it, you might check out the Likud charter too.)
You declare "they" talk of genociding Jews on Palestinian TV and on Palestinian schools. Who is "they?" ALL Palestinian leaders and TV personalities? ALL Palestinian school teachers? Have you seen what "they" say about Arabs on Israeli TV and in some Israeli schools? We could trade disturbing video clips, but I'd hope we don't really need to.
Who is a "Jihadist" to you? I'll also repeat my earlier question to you, Who is "Hamas" to you? Sounds like you are saying "they" are all "genocidal". Is that by nature? By religion?
Since you are "high in openness trait," I would invite you to be open to the notion that there are a range of human beings in the simple categories you are declaring. There are even "factions" within Hamas, that strongly disagree about principles, tactics, ethics, religious principles, etc.
I'll also invite you to be open to consider that the information you have about Hamas, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians, Israelis, and Jews is limited and may have some biases and blindspots. Let's see if we can keep growing and learning in understanding our brothers and sisters in humanity. 😊
No, I have checked out a while ago the 2017 charter and it does NOT embrace, not even hint at a 2 state solution. I made an error above, I should have said pre 2017, not pre 1988 (that was original charter).
There is a Likkud charter? That calls for genocide of Palestinians? I'll check it out if it exists and does that. Most Israelis are not for genociding anyone. Not even most Likkudniks.
No, not ALL palestinian leaders are genocidal (by religion, philosophy and by nurture, not by nature. And of course there are peaceful muslims, like most sufis). I think Marwan Barghouti might be genuinely interested in peace with Israelis, not sure. But so far Hamas has about 80% support among Palestinians. Maybe it went down lately? Haven't checked. Dissenters get shot or thrown off roofs, so that's a mechanism for keeping up the popular support for Hamas.
Of course I don't know every Hamasnik. If there are peaceful ones, I'd like to know them. Every thing I've see about them points to a death cult.
If there were Palestinians in Gaza or West Bank who could see Israelis like Charles sees everyone, we should find them in their poets. I could not find even one poem by a Palestinian who sees the humanity of Israelis, whereas there are several poems by Israelis who acknowledge the humanity of Palestinians. I found one poem that came close, where the author decided he wouldn't want to kill a soldier if the soldier had a family or community. And no the fact that Palestinians are oppressed and Israelis are not (they are only brutally murdered) does not explain this. Mandela was able to transcend his oppression and see the humanity of the SA whites.
So I appreciate your and Charle's good heart, but it fails when it comes to dealing with death cults. It's a very human thing, the death cult. Of course they are our brothers and sisters. But we can't let them kill us, can we?
Skipped most of my questions. Oh well. Your blinders are pretty strong. I tried. 😂
Definitely, don't let "THEM" kill you! Be safe out there! 😁 ❤️
Which ones? Maybe you missed my answers? Let's keep trying. I said not ALL in reference to your first question.
"Who is Hamas to me?" I didn't answer explicitly, only implicitly, you're right. Since I don't know Hamasniks personally, I only know their charter, and what I've seen on Palestinian TV. And also what I HAVEN'T seen, which is a genuine feeling of compassion and recognition of Israelis' humanity, except from Barghouti.
"Who is they?" In what context? Most of the time I am clear that it's either Palestinians, 80% of Palestinians or most Hamasniks. Be more specific in your question if you want a more specific answer.
"Have I seen what Israelis say about Arabs on Israeli TV and in some Israeli schools?" You're right, I missed answering that. Sorry. No, I haven't since I left Israel about 50 years ago. I know that I was taught tolerance in school and love by my parents towards arabs (one of my best friends was half arab and I stood up for him whenever I could). Though there was some racism from other kids, there was not genocidal hatred. There was also fear of picking up anything that looked like a toy, because it could be a plastic explosive. Fear of arab terrorism was real, but it was not translated to hatred towards arabs. From what I can tell, things haven't changed that much.
Exept for many liberal Israelis (like myself) have realized after October 7th that Hamas is a death cult
You know, this is ostensibly an article about Gaza vs Israel, but I read it as an indictment of my on again, off again lover versus me.
When we fight, he others and demeans me. He tries to make me less than so that he can justify unleashing all of his rage on me.
But while I see this ugliness in him, I also know why he is so violent, and it is exactly as Charles has said: he is desperately afraid that if it is, in fact, his fault that some Bad Thing has happened, that he will be cast out of the circle of love, left to fend for himself, by himself, because he deserves to be punished for his rottenness. In Charles' words, he is sure that he is one of the Shitty People, and he devotes the entirety of his life force to proving to himself wrong.
Irony is that no one has accused him but that he has judged himself. And no one is convinced by his performance of goodness either, especially himself.
I knew, Charles, that you were gonna come through for me. I needed your words today, and your guidance. You have given a new and grander meaning to my pathetic struggles to either love or leave this man. I know you, I think, a little, and you would tell me that my stubborn refusal to see him as a Shitty Person despite the abuse he reigns down on me strengthens the field of peace that will one day enfold Israel, Gaza, and the rest of our world.
Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you for seeing me, though you had no idea and we've never met.
Thank you. I'm taking so much flak for this article, it is nice to know that it was helpful to someone.
These couple of sentences are the perfect summary of your entire essay: “Sociopathic and narcissistic leaders reflect back to us, in extreme form, the everyday dehumanization of those we judge. They are more symptom than cause of the horrors they preside over.”
Garbage in, garbage out. If you don’t like what you see, change yourself, not the mirror. Stop following sociopathic and narcissistic “leaders”.
Yep. In our country (USA) we live with the artifacts of two of the greatest racial atrocities in history: the extermination of indigenous people and the compulsory immigration and enslavement of the indigenous people of Africa. To this day we perpetuate the segregation of one group (this continent's indigenous people) and agruably the repression of the other. Plenty of "othering" happening right here at home. Maybe rather than getting all worked up about what's happening half a world away we should pay more attention to the atrocities happening right here in our own communities. As Jesus also said, maybe we shouldn't point out the mote in our brother's eye, but not see the log in our own eye.
Yes, totally, and the situation in Israel is almost the opposite of both of these, once you dig into it, but I can't blame people for trying to fit Israel/Palestine into the Procrustean bed of what they know happened here.
Also, this is another explanation of why american liberals are so obsessed with Israel (compared to the 10x or more atrocities happening in other muslim nations against muslims): you guys feel guilty about what your ancestors did to native americans and afro-americans and are projecting that guilt onto Israel, because Israel is more like you than muslim countries. And there is no clear underdog in those other countries, and liberals believe the underdog is always right.
How is it "almost the opposite”?
1. Settlers in america or SA mostly thought of natives as inferior. Settlers in Palestine mostly thought of natives as equals (not to be exploited in any way), because they were mostly socialists (with a few notable exceptions that initially did not have much influence on relations with the natives, but unfortunately later did, thinking here of Jabotinsky).
2. Settlers in new world or SA were representing England and Holland, two colonial empires, and wanted to extract resources for the home empire. Settlers in Israel were mostly socialist refugees (not just from Europe, but also from muslim counties) who just wanted to not be killed and didn't ever steal or displace anyone, and had no home colonial empire to pump resources towards. Displacement only happened after a genocidal war (by a bunch of arab nations) was thwarted. And much of the displacement was due to arab leaders telling arabs to "temporarily, until Jews are genocided", leave.
3. The natives in america (not sure about SA) were initially mostly welcoming and friendly. The natives in Palestine were initially mostly hostile and murderous (before any oppression of them by Jews happened).
4. The settlers in both america and SA had no previous claim to the land they were coming to. The settlers in Palestine had an old but deeply meaningful claim, after being displaced by several colonialist empires.
Genocide is genocide. Oppression is oppression.
Both are intimately connected. It is the same story, at bottom, the story of othering. I write a lot about Palestine because genocide is in progress there right now. Repairing the legacy of genocide is another matter, certainly worthy of attention.
The legacy of genocide? The native people of the USA are still in camps! We actively "other" them to the point of being so demoralized that they literally die from broken hearts. The Palestine/Israel situation is not to be condoned, but I wonder if fixating on it so much is a means of distraction from the "othering" we ourselves participate in. "Those people over there in the middle east are bad" is in and of itself a form of "othering".
I don't think it is a distraction. It is part of the same phenomenon, and its lessons apply here too. But i wouldn't say that genocide is in progress now against North America's indigenous, because to use that word too broadly renders it useless. I would say instead that a lot of repair work is needed to addressed the systematized poverty and degradation that has been frozen in place on the reservations. Active, deliberate genocidal and culture-cidal policies (such as the forced sterilization of Native women, and the suppression of their languages) continued well into the 1960s. Thankfully, those policies have ended, yet we have not yet come, as a society, to a full reckoning of the damage already done and yet unhealed. Instead, it is swept aside and permitted to fester, out of sight, out of mind, on the reservations and elsewhere. It is another expression of othering, and just because I am writing about Palestine doesn't mean that I think it is not important.
You missed my point.
'So, let me not say,
“End the war. Ceasefire,"
while the war still lives within me
and the fire still scorches a fury
burning my remaining sanity.
Let me not say, “Never again”
while I scroll past again
and again
and again.
May I remember that I am the line that must break,
the hand that must let go,
the leader that must love again,
the peoples that must see through the rage,
because greed is a motherless baby
hate is a fatherless child
violence is the orphaned little one
left to die in the deepest, coldest, emptiest
cave.'
- excerpt from https://open.substack.com/pub/shantinaidoopage/p/the-poison-and-the-cure?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=3xutd3
I have to say “too little too late,” Charles. I’ve been pretty saddened by your lack of focus on this ongoing genocide — happening pretty obviously for 1.5 years now. Where were you? It's been obvious since the opening bomb salvos that Israel was intent on genocide and full ethnic cleansing. "Genocide" does not require intending to or actually killing all Gazans -- it requires legally the intent to destroy Gazans as a political or cultural entity. And that's been very clear for some time now. South Africa filed a genocide claim at the ICC a few months after Oct 7, summarizing the many many statements from Israeli leaders making very clear their intentions.
Are you being facetious? I have written about it again and again ever since Oct. 2023. In fact, fully half of my essays have been on this topic. I'm confused by this comment. Most people say I write about it too much, not too little.
I have seen very little from you on this! I'll go back again and check but I looked back at your pieces and I get your notification emails and I've seen very little from you on this. If I'm wrong I'll remove my comment and apologize. I don't think you've called this the obvious genocide that it is in any of your pieces before this one -- and I just used your website search function to look for "genocide." The same search function shows no pieces before this one actually labeling what Israel is doing genocide. And I don't see any pieces devoted to looking at what Israel is doing specifically in Gaza, with OUR taxpayer dollars, and calling for the funding and the horror to stop. Am I missing pieces?
I generally agree with your exhortations to avoid othering and further separation. But when that exhortation extends to not calling out such extreme crimes as genocide and ethnic cleansing, particularly those funded with OUR taxpayer dollars and OUR diplomatic cover, I'm sorry but we need to call these kinds of things out in very clear terms, while still recognizing the humanity of even the perpetrators of these heinous crimes.
Maybe I didn't use the specific word "genocide" in my writing, choosing instead "crimes against humanity," "mass murder," "heinous crimes," "ethnic cleansing," "slaughter," "war crimes," "horrors," and so forth. It is a very polarizing word that means different things to different people, and I wanted to reach people who would have been turned off by what "genocide" signals about my allegiance to the Palestinian cause. But I have certainly not been silent on this issue. Here are the substack posts I made directly on the topic after Oct. 7:
If we really want it to stop
Hamas, Israel, and the Devil on my Shoulder
In my Name, I Want no Vengeance
A story told a hundred thousand times
War is always justified
Friends don’t let friends destroy themselves
How to heal the wound of Gaza
The snipers are the lucky ones
I also wrote on Palestine before Oct. 7: "Palestine and the Politics of Guilt by Association"
These are in addition to numerous other essays that aren't directly about Gaza. I mention Gaza a lot because I think it is important to keep the issue visible. I have never sought to minimize the extent of what is happening there. And I have done all this at considerable personal cost. I lost the confidence of RFK Jr., for instance, sidelining myself in the campaign leadership. And I lost thousands upon thousands of subscribers. Yes, these "personal costs" are tiny compared to what many activists endure, let alone the Palestinians themselves, so I am not claiming any special courage. But still, if you want to lecture someone about complicity in the face of genocide you should find another target.
"Forgive them father for they know not what they do." 🙏🏽💚
Thanks Charles. Right on with us vs. them at cause. Do we have the courage to go deep and face the pain of separation? Face the wound? Do the shadow work? Take back our projections and judgements? Open to the heart of compassion? It seems to me that's the way to healing and human evolution. I'm getting a lot there from the Cosmic Matrix podcast.
Thank you. Question. I get no "shitty people", beautiful, I'm lovingly reminded of James Carse. I'm torn about still "them-ing" sociopaths. Please help me handle this paradox.
Not suggesting its wrong, wondering how to sit with it.
I guess an optimistic view is that there are just too damn many humans for good ecological balance, and it gives us the illusion that we are above nature somehow, so.... rather than dying naturally through starvation as species normally would when that happens, because our technologies protect us from that most of the time, instead, we are killing ourselves in droves through different forms of mental illness (war, addiction) and being killed off by virus' and the illnesses stemming from chemical farming and poisoning the land and waters..... Basically we have shit where we eat, which all species normally know not to do, but we have lost that awareness, because of the side effects of our sheer numbers.... SO the earth is just finding balance it needs, and in a few hundred years, there will be FAR FEWER humans, and then we will find ecological harmony and live within the sustainable practices because we will have to, and then all will be better again.
Ecological imbalance isn't because there are too many of us. It is because of how we are relating to nature. Earth could support 20 billion people if we all lived the lifestyle of a traditional Bangladeshi villager, for example. I went through the argument in my Climate book. And if everyone lived the lifestyle of an affluent North American, the planet would be screwed.