I sat down with my 18-year-old son, Philip, at his suggestion to record a conversation about the anxieties and worries of young people about earth's future; why they are drawn to dystopian and nihilistic worldviews; the search for meaning and purpose; embracing the unknown; wonder, and beauty; the truth and the lie in the concept of "deserving"; the problem with rewards and approval, coming of age then and now, and some other subjects that Philip has noticed come up a lot in himself and among his peers. Audio version
Fascinating what 10 years will do. I’m 10 years older than you Charles. I was born in Germany and left before the wall went up in Berlin. Lived all over the world. Saw abject poverty in Panama. But I never felt fear. And I grew up in the middle of the Cold War. I have always remained optimistic. My worse fear is living out in current times. Because I see powerful forces that don’t give a crap about people and the world. But even with all that I remain optimistic. Primarily because of people like you share and others here share The More Beautiful World. We are not alone. It is not logical. But we are here for something magnificent. We are here to learn everything we can learn. To feel everything we can feel. Good and bad. To be fully and authentically human.
Charles, I’m curious if you have seen the movie, “C’mon, C’mon” ?
In this movie about the relationship between adults and children, it begins by adults asking children about what they think the future will look like...feel like. It’s an amazing movie, and this conversation urged me to recommend it to anyone who hasn’t seen it. Fascinating.
What an amazing conversation! I am 83 and can not imagine having had a conversation anywhere near that with my parents! There were times when I tried to voice an opinion and have a conversation, but they couldn't do it. They always felt they had to teach us, as did the schools, and never had the trust that we could learn without their intentional teaching.
One thing that was not mentioned in the conversation is the crucial importance of how infants 0-2 or 3 years old are related to. During this time, the body knows what it wants, and learns to listen to its own knowing and trust that knowing, so that perhaps later on rewards are not that meaningful, and one's own purpose and desire is more keenly felt and followed. Gabor Mate's book 'The Myth of Normal' has some clear explanations, from various angles, about this.
To truly behold someone or something requires being and becoming, which are developmental stages that commence at birth and run their course in seven-year life cycles. For example, age 42 completes the sixth developmental cycle, and ushers in the era of Spirit Beholding. We begin to see the transparency of consciousness, and acquire the faculty of "seeing through" the outer-external parameters. Piercing-the-veil is another way of expressing this. Parsifalian Thinking as the means to discern what stands behind subject-object distinctions; the coveted, Ding -an Sich, of Immanuel Kant. He claimed it couldn't be reached, which David Hume jumped all over with his logical empiricism. Rudolf Steiner's book, "The Education of the Child" explains all this from a spiritual-scientific point of view.
I just finished listening to it before I received this in my email. Such a lovely conversation. Thank you both for sharing. Philip's insight and the way he communicates is refreshing to see in such a young human. May it serve him well throughout the years!
This was so great. Thank you 💗 I hope more public intellectuals will be having these kinds of public/online dialogues with their children! I feel sometimes that it is hard to talk to people who are maybe 10 years younger than me (I’m 43), but I really enjoy dialoguing with those who are more than 20 years younger... It feels like the distance allows for some space so that we come into dialogue not knowing what to expect maybe. Also I feel like those of us who are right between the “boomers” and “millennials” are a kind of bridge generation--or could potentially be anyway.
Thank you for sharing this beautiful conversation between father and son. You mention that you yourself, at Philip’s age, went through a similar anxiety. I also have four sons (and a daughter), and have seen their anxiety levels peak at around that age. Going from the assuredness of knowing what their days would look like, and having fairly straightforward and predictable tasks (Highschool) - to going out into the wider world, possibly leaving home, having to figure out “what to be when I grow up”...the unknowns that come with that can cause a lot of conscience or unconscious anxiety. Without a clear plan, fear has a way of taking over, and in today’s unstable world, it must be exponentially so. I feel for the younger generation, that’s for sure. There’s a lot on their shoulders. But with a Dad like you to help, not so much ‘guide’ your sons, but, through amazing conversations like the one I just heard, to help them get in touch with their inner conflicts and uncertainties; your kids are incredibly lucky. It seems to me that young people today (from my experience) seem more evolved, more in touch with their values, more guided by their own wisdom, than previous generations, and I have hope for them, that they will figure out a better way than the current climate. You must be very proud of Philip.
What struck me profoundly is how comfortable Philip is with silence. Over the years, I had already noticed this about you, Charles, and thought it to be a part of your deep thinking style. Most people are highly uncomfortable with silence in conversation, as am I. So I really noticed when your son, even at such a young age, was so quiet and introspective even when on camera. The urge to fill up the silence is overpowering for a lot of people. This augurs well for him, I think.
I have a one year old and it felt like time travel to watch you have this conversation. Thanks for modeling what stewardship and communion can look like
Thank you for this! I really enjoyed listening to it.
As a millennial, I feel I got kind of screwed. I think Gen Z is making better decisions than my generation because they see through the illusion, which my generation did not. We still thought it mattered to get good grades. So we are saddled down with student debt in unsatisfying careers, without the ability to quit (because of the interest-bearing debt), which congress voted to make impossible to default on. I'm uplifted that the younger generation sees through this. My younger cousins are for the most part, choosing to forego college because they saw their parents paying off debt and don't' want that life. Good choice! I'm also uplifted that the younger generation doesn't want to work their asses off in a career to make a lot of money for someone else. I see this all as the right kind of progress.
I think the legacy of Millennials might me the generation that made do. They lived in tiny houses and yurts because they couldn't afford McMansions. They grew food in their backyard because they couldn't afford an acreage. They figured out how to do this, using the Internet, because they didn't know anyone who could teach them these things.
The earth is being healed right now. There are regenerative farmers with amazing results. A dam was removed in Washington state and the count of salmon is up farther than we thought possible! There is much to be hopeful for. But these stories aren't in the mainstream narrative and so people just don't know what is possible. We must show them the beauty that is possible, in this scrap of Eden we are left with.
More interviews with the younger generation please! I want to know what they see when they look out on the world.
Enjoyed listening to father and son! I feel Phil (!) is a zen master in disguise ( a youngster) because he seems to know a lot that is waiting to unfold. I would love to see him interviewing his father some day and maybe he gets the chance to speak more ! ✌️🙏💞
Thank you for sitting down with Philip in this way. I feel like I'm constantly practicing for that conversation which may or may not happen with my child. It finds its way into each letter I write to him here on my substack, and still how much will change by the time he himself comes of age.
Exactly what the world needs right now is conversations like this. I think a lot about the day I will have my first conversation with my son and daughter about these things, with a role model like Charles providing sacred resources such as this, and with both Charles and Philip showing up in full vulnerability it is the inspiration needed.
Yes, I got hung up right away when Charles said he was his third or fourth son. Wouldn't he know? Does it mean he has other children out there that maybe he doesn't even know of? Being eighteen today is living in a very nondescript world in which Philip tries to communicate with his Dad. This is the most interesting, and ultimately, defining part of a father-son relationship that Charles himself has to define. We live in chaos, and why should young people see anything other than a dystopic worldview in which aged maniacs rule with the intent to destroy. The young have no power to defeat evil at all. They are left helpless with no identity other than the nihilist agenda of their own self-making. This makes us old-timers more responsible than ever. Once we're gone, it is over. The Future is in the hands of the inept, unless .......
Out of this most extraordinary conversation between Son and Father, we have something definable as a quality of life, and that is the need for Perspective. What does an eighteen-year old in the Gen-Z time frame see as hopeful and possible today? For one thing, he has a father who cares and loves him. This opens up the whole range of possibilities. I can get pretty negative about the world scene today, and I do blame the old-timers, and even the young-timers who cling to the materialism of a dying, crumbling planet. Yet, there has to be a solution to this dilemma. Underworld forces do exist in order to kill the planet Earth, and yet, here is the paradox: They do so because it is their function to bring Evil into the world as a tangible element. This is done in order to be the catalyst for what has to prevail as the Ultimate Good. This is the mission of the Manichees. So, young Philip is someone to keep an eye on, and especially because his own father is his mentor. Please encourage him to be an Agent of Beneficial Change wherever he goes. This is what made it possible for me to survive in an era, c. 1980, that was far less disastrous than now. I see a young man in black, with long hair, and a future that will have to be forged with skill, finesse, and courage. Could this be the new perspective needed? We old-timers can give stewardship to such an audacious possibility, or even more to the point; Opportunity.
Fascinating what 10 years will do. I’m 10 years older than you Charles. I was born in Germany and left before the wall went up in Berlin. Lived all over the world. Saw abject poverty in Panama. But I never felt fear. And I grew up in the middle of the Cold War. I have always remained optimistic. My worse fear is living out in current times. Because I see powerful forces that don’t give a crap about people and the world. But even with all that I remain optimistic. Primarily because of people like you share and others here share The More Beautiful World. We are not alone. It is not logical. But we are here for something magnificent. We are here to learn everything we can learn. To feel everything we can feel. Good and bad. To be fully and authentically human.
Charles, I’m curious if you have seen the movie, “C’mon, C’mon” ?
In this movie about the relationship between adults and children, it begins by adults asking children about what they think the future will look like...feel like. It’s an amazing movie, and this conversation urged me to recommend it to anyone who hasn’t seen it. Fascinating.
Haven't seen it (yet)
What an amazing conversation! I am 83 and can not imagine having had a conversation anywhere near that with my parents! There were times when I tried to voice an opinion and have a conversation, but they couldn't do it. They always felt they had to teach us, as did the schools, and never had the trust that we could learn without their intentional teaching.
One thing that was not mentioned in the conversation is the crucial importance of how infants 0-2 or 3 years old are related to. During this time, the body knows what it wants, and learns to listen to its own knowing and trust that knowing, so that perhaps later on rewards are not that meaningful, and one's own purpose and desire is more keenly felt and followed. Gabor Mate's book 'The Myth of Normal' has some clear explanations, from various angles, about this.
To truly behold someone or something requires being and becoming, which are developmental stages that commence at birth and run their course in seven-year life cycles. For example, age 42 completes the sixth developmental cycle, and ushers in the era of Spirit Beholding. We begin to see the transparency of consciousness, and acquire the faculty of "seeing through" the outer-external parameters. Piercing-the-veil is another way of expressing this. Parsifalian Thinking as the means to discern what stands behind subject-object distinctions; the coveted, Ding -an Sich, of Immanuel Kant. He claimed it couldn't be reached, which David Hume jumped all over with his logical empiricism. Rudolf Steiner's book, "The Education of the Child" explains all this from a spiritual-scientific point of view.
I just finished listening to it before I received this in my email. Such a lovely conversation. Thank you both for sharing. Philip's insight and the way he communicates is refreshing to see in such a young human. May it serve him well throughout the years!
This was so great. Thank you 💗 I hope more public intellectuals will be having these kinds of public/online dialogues with their children! I feel sometimes that it is hard to talk to people who are maybe 10 years younger than me (I’m 43), but I really enjoy dialoguing with those who are more than 20 years younger... It feels like the distance allows for some space so that we come into dialogue not knowing what to expect maybe. Also I feel like those of us who are right between the “boomers” and “millennials” are a kind of bridge generation--or could potentially be anyway.
Thank you for sharing this beautiful conversation between father and son. You mention that you yourself, at Philip’s age, went through a similar anxiety. I also have four sons (and a daughter), and have seen their anxiety levels peak at around that age. Going from the assuredness of knowing what their days would look like, and having fairly straightforward and predictable tasks (Highschool) - to going out into the wider world, possibly leaving home, having to figure out “what to be when I grow up”...the unknowns that come with that can cause a lot of conscience or unconscious anxiety. Without a clear plan, fear has a way of taking over, and in today’s unstable world, it must be exponentially so. I feel for the younger generation, that’s for sure. There’s a lot on their shoulders. But with a Dad like you to help, not so much ‘guide’ your sons, but, through amazing conversations like the one I just heard, to help them get in touch with their inner conflicts and uncertainties; your kids are incredibly lucky. It seems to me that young people today (from my experience) seem more evolved, more in touch with their values, more guided by their own wisdom, than previous generations, and I have hope for them, that they will figure out a better way than the current climate. You must be very proud of Philip.
What struck me profoundly is how comfortable Philip is with silence. Over the years, I had already noticed this about you, Charles, and thought it to be a part of your deep thinking style. Most people are highly uncomfortable with silence in conversation, as am I. So I really noticed when your son, even at such a young age, was so quiet and introspective even when on camera. The urge to fill up the silence is overpowering for a lot of people. This augurs well for him, I think.
I have a one year old and it felt like time travel to watch you have this conversation. Thanks for modeling what stewardship and communion can look like
Thank you for this! I really enjoyed listening to it.
As a millennial, I feel I got kind of screwed. I think Gen Z is making better decisions than my generation because they see through the illusion, which my generation did not. We still thought it mattered to get good grades. So we are saddled down with student debt in unsatisfying careers, without the ability to quit (because of the interest-bearing debt), which congress voted to make impossible to default on. I'm uplifted that the younger generation sees through this. My younger cousins are for the most part, choosing to forego college because they saw their parents paying off debt and don't' want that life. Good choice! I'm also uplifted that the younger generation doesn't want to work their asses off in a career to make a lot of money for someone else. I see this all as the right kind of progress.
I think the legacy of Millennials might me the generation that made do. They lived in tiny houses and yurts because they couldn't afford McMansions. They grew food in their backyard because they couldn't afford an acreage. They figured out how to do this, using the Internet, because they didn't know anyone who could teach them these things.
The earth is being healed right now. There are regenerative farmers with amazing results. A dam was removed in Washington state and the count of salmon is up farther than we thought possible! There is much to be hopeful for. But these stories aren't in the mainstream narrative and so people just don't know what is possible. We must show them the beauty that is possible, in this scrap of Eden we are left with.
More interviews with the younger generation please! I want to know what they see when they look out on the world.
Enjoyed listening to father and son! I feel Phil (!) is a zen master in disguise ( a youngster) because he seems to know a lot that is waiting to unfold. I would love to see him interviewing his father some day and maybe he gets the chance to speak more ! ✌️🙏💞
Ecclesiastes 1:18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and as knowledge grows, grief increases.
Thank you for sitting down with Philip in this way. I feel like I'm constantly practicing for that conversation which may or may not happen with my child. It finds its way into each letter I write to him here on my substack, and still how much will change by the time he himself comes of age.
This is a great model. Thank you, brother.
Exactly what the world needs right now is conversations like this. I think a lot about the day I will have my first conversation with my son and daughter about these things, with a role model like Charles providing sacred resources such as this, and with both Charles and Philip showing up in full vulnerability it is the inspiration needed.
Thank you
🙏❤️
Will there be a transcript? That is much easier for so many of us.
It would be helpful to provide a transcript for those of us that don’t have a free hour to listen to the audio or video version.
OK, I'll get one.
Yes, I got hung up right away when Charles said he was his third or fourth son. Wouldn't he know? Does it mean he has other children out there that maybe he doesn't even know of? Being eighteen today is living in a very nondescript world in which Philip tries to communicate with his Dad. This is the most interesting, and ultimately, defining part of a father-son relationship that Charles himself has to define. We live in chaos, and why should young people see anything other than a dystopic worldview in which aged maniacs rule with the intent to destroy. The young have no power to defeat evil at all. They are left helpless with no identity other than the nihilist agenda of their own self-making. This makes us old-timers more responsible than ever. Once we're gone, it is over. The Future is in the hands of the inept, unless .......
I said "third of four" not "third or fourth." Of course I know how many sons I have!
🤣🤪 that’s funny
He said "Third of Four Sons..." of, or, yes a huge difference in meaning. But he said 3rd of 4...
Out of this most extraordinary conversation between Son and Father, we have something definable as a quality of life, and that is the need for Perspective. What does an eighteen-year old in the Gen-Z time frame see as hopeful and possible today? For one thing, he has a father who cares and loves him. This opens up the whole range of possibilities. I can get pretty negative about the world scene today, and I do blame the old-timers, and even the young-timers who cling to the materialism of a dying, crumbling planet. Yet, there has to be a solution to this dilemma. Underworld forces do exist in order to kill the planet Earth, and yet, here is the paradox: They do so because it is their function to bring Evil into the world as a tangible element. This is done in order to be the catalyst for what has to prevail as the Ultimate Good. This is the mission of the Manichees. So, young Philip is someone to keep an eye on, and especially because his own father is his mentor. Please encourage him to be an Agent of Beneficial Change wherever he goes. This is what made it possible for me to survive in an era, c. 1980, that was far less disastrous than now. I see a young man in black, with long hair, and a future that will have to be forged with skill, finesse, and courage. Could this be the new perspective needed? We old-timers can give stewardship to such an audacious possibility, or even more to the point; Opportunity.