I can see we have very different perspectives here and I respect yours, while I also deeply disagree.
We can get into the weeds here if you’d like but I get the sense you’d like a “gotcha” type moment.
To respond to what you’ve said though:
Trump did not stack the courts. He appointed who he appointed which is well within his job responsibilities. There is much talk amongst democrats about adding Supreme Court justices which is quite literally packing the courts. I agree that Trump says a lot of things I don’t necessarily agree with. He says many things I wish he wouldn’t say. What I will say though is that he is not more creepy to me than the Clinton’s, let’s say. Creepiness seems to be the personality type in politics from what I can see. Many professionals have claimed he is a narcissist and it doesn’t make it so. Consider lots of people have essentially painted him as the second coming of Hitler which is a stretch if I’m being generous. Let’s say he doesn’t hide his worst qualities.
The abortion story I’ve heard cited so frequently over the last days is not a political story. It’s a tragedy and it has nothing to do with being denied abortion. Georgia has exceptions for incest, rape and maternal health. It’s a terrible story but not a political talking point.
And about the GOP bringing us the Patriot Act: it was everyone. There was one congressman who voted against it. One. The Bush/Cheney/old guard has fully endorsed Kamala which tells me quite a lot.
Again, I respect your perspective entirely and that we don’t agree. Just trying to shed light on my point.
I've given loads of sources on this thread. All I stuff I know prior but found sources for while writing. So I don't understand your question about where I get my info from.
I doubt he meant that Trump was genocidal, or wants to invade his neighbours though he's certainly racist.
But like Hitler he's the conductor for a cult of personality fueled by hate and delusion, scapegoats minorities while being backed by big business and he's selling people a false prospectus.
It has everything to do with abortion. "She showed up at Piedmont Henry Hospital in need of a routine procedure to clear it from her uterus, called a dilation and curettage, or D&C.
But just that summer, her state had made performing the procedure a felony, with few exceptions. Any doctor who violated the new Georgia law could be prosecuted and face up to a decade in prison."
Trump displays all the characteristics of narcissism, it's perfectly obvious. His boasting, silly lies about cried size, never being wrong, always taking credit, claiming to know more than anyone about anything, impulsiveness, vicious personal attacks, lack of empathy. He is an empty deeply wounded man. He needs care. But he shouldn't be a leader!
His narcissism is displayed in the way he sexually objectifies his daughter.
Re Trump's creepiness:
"
#3: ‘If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father’
During a 2015 interview with Donald Trump for Rolling Stone, reporter Paul Solotaroff praised Ivanka Trump. The soon-to-be president’s response? “Yeah, she’s really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father…”
#2: ‘Is it wrong to be more sexually attracted to your own daughter than your wife’?
Courtesy of a 2016 Buzzfeed News scoop, the (second) creepiest incident of them all.
In an early draft of a piece by Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen, he purportedly wrote that “President-elect Donald Trump once asked, ‘Is it wrong to be more sexually attracted to your own daughter than your wife?’ — but the quote was quietly removed before the syndicated column was published.”
Yes, it’s wrong, Donald.
#1: The absolute worst of them all (and it’s NSFW)
According to a soon-to-be-published book, Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy From the Next Trump, the former president “regularly made lewd comments about his daughter Ivanka and fantasized about what it would be like to have sex with her.”
According to The New Republic, “’Aides said he talked about Ivanka Trump’s breasts, her backside and what it might be like to have sex with her, remarks that once led [former Chief of Staff] John Kelly to remind the president that Ivanka was his daughter,’ Taylor, who served as a Department of Homeland Security chief of staff under Trump, wrote in his book.”"
Clinton certainly abused his power by having sex with an intern. He may have been sexually predatory to other women. Nothing proven. Trump has been found guilty of 'grabbing a woman by the pussy' by a jury of his peers. And said these unspeakable things about his daughter.
Theres nothing equivalent to that with Clinton. I think you're letting Trump off the hook with a false equivalence or low expectations.
My stomach turns when I read these things. You?
He's unwell. And poor Ivanka to have a father who reduces her like that. It must feel terribly unsafe.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "gotcha". I'm interested in evidence. That's all. Intuition is the right lens for decisions about our personal lives, to filter through a chaotic media landscape and come to a decision about voting, we need reason, including source evaluation.
I share your concern about rights. How much do you know about Project 2025? It's far worse than the Republican Patriot Act. Which actually 63 Democrats opposed and just three Republicans https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll398.xml
What specifically is your concern about the Dems re rights?
I am avidly reading this thread as the days go along. I would very much like to see a response to your comment here, and hope Polyxena responds. I'm looking at evidence and well thought out ideas throughout. Thank you both for your participation in discourse.
I'd like to see that too. My experience those who view Trump favourably know little about him and like it that way. So I'd be surprised if she responds.
It’s not that I view Trump favorably - it’s that the other option is so horrendous I can’t imagine where we would be in another 4 years. I think people are more informed than you think and simply don’t agree with you.
A few children who US voters might bear in mind when they go to the polls.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66116536 “A man has been sentenced to life in prison for the rape of a nine-year-old Ohio girl in a case that made headlines after the victim had to travel to another US state for an abortion.
Gerson Fuentes, 28, pleaded guilty to two felony counts of rape in last year's attack.
The child went to Indiana to terminate the pregnancy after her home state restricted access to the procedure.
It happened after the US Supreme Court overturned abortion rights”
But amid confusion over what abortion care is allowed in Mississippi, Regina says she was unaware Ashley qualified for an abortion in Mississippi under the law's exception for cases of rape. Yet, even if she was aware, it's unlikely Ashley would have been able to get an abortion in Mississippi; with heavy restrictions in effect and the high penalties on physicians who violate the abortion ban, it is unlikely she would have found a doctor willing to perform a procedure.”
You might imagine how and if you could explain to these children that your concerns about freedom of speech were more important than their capacity to choose.
I disagree. There are millions of Americans who have diabetes because of poor diet choices. There are millions of American who have distorted views because they don't know how to evaluate the media consume. 2/3rds of Republicans believe the 2020 election was stolen https://theconversation.com/why-do-millions-of-americans-believe-the-2020-presidential-election-was-stolen-from-donald-trump-224016 - which was simply a lie and has been proven so multiple times in court. Including Fox 'News' paying out 787m dollars for knowingly spreading this lie (freedom of speech, even to lie but not freedom from the consequences of speech).
You yourself believed Trump to be a moderate on abortion who was somehow not responsible for ending Roe vs Wade. And that he was not linked to Project 2025. No doubt those interpretations were based on what you consumed. And I believe I have demonstrated conclusively that there is solid evidence that on abortion he is not a moderate, that he took ownership of the decision and celebrated it. And that he knows and is alignment with the architects of Project 2025.
And there are millions of Americans with diabetes because we have an industrial good system that is based on food-stuffs and not nutrition. All backed up by a medical establishment that receives donations from the same industries making people sick. The food pyramid is based on garbage science that has been disproven time and again. Meanwhile it is used to create school lunches and dietary recommendations that Americans had largely followed since it was created.
It’s interesting you phrased it that way- it’s generally those that lean conservative that place a high premium on personal responsibility. I have a feeling you wouldn’t have used that language to refer to the many impoverished children of color in inner cities that simply do not have access to nutritious food and thus have little possibility of making appropriate dietary choices.
Sounds like you are completely unaware of actual policy. Trump and Project 2025 will end consumer protection and leave Americans less informed about the garbage in their food. Walz gave free lunches and breakfast kids in his state. The Republicans are trying to ban it https://theintercept.com/2024/03/21/house-republicans-ban-universal-school-lunches/ it's actually tragic that you are voting so far against your stated values. And against common decency. Racist rapists shouldn't be rewarded with power. That's a sign of a truly sick culture.
Like I said, I’m not really sure where to go from here. I’ve shared my perspective to the best of my ability. You have intense animus toward the Republican Party which I suppose is fair. But also the president doesn’t control what congress does. I think undernourished children should absolutely have free meals at school. I am also not a Republican and don’t wholesale agree with every policy or piece of legislation. Nor did I agree with everything the democrats wanted back when I identified as one. Throughout this thread I feel I have repeated myself many times and haven’t received much good faith response to those comments.
I am not under the illusion that any party will save America. I don’t think any one person will make or break us. I am voting against a regime that is hostile to the citizens of this country and the rights granted us by our own founding documents. I am voting against a fool hardy war in the Ukraine which has the potential for an incendiary world war. I am voting against a media that is nearly 100 percent in bed with the Democratic Party and the beltway establishment at large.
I will end by saying I may well be dead wrong about Donald Trump. Maybe he is indeed Satan risen as he has been described since he became a political figure. I can’t know these things for sure. And frankly I’m rather suspicious in these times of increasing obfuscation of anyone that is so certain of their own beliefs.
I wish you well and thanks for attempting a discussion.
Again you make this claim the the Democrats are attacking right. Three times I've asked you to name these policies. You've not responded. Nor responded to whether you think it should be protected speech to incite hatred and violence or to knowing misinform in such a way as to cause predictable harm. I've done my best to respond to each point you've made, with sources to evidence my points. You're claim that I'm not in good faith seems like a projection to me.
I wish you well. And I hope that for the sake of rape victims, ordinary women who simply want an abortion, hungry children, gay people who want to marry or simply tell the truth about who they are (Project 2025 aims to prevent both, if you are unaware and care you should educate yourself), little girls and boys who need a decent person and not a rapist as a role model and leader of the nation Trump loses and is I hope imprisoned. And I hope his cultists and those suckered by manipulative narratives wake up before it’s too late.
Ps re Ukraine - appeasing Putin (Trump will simply hand-over Ukraine, I have friends on the frontline fighting for their lives and home) is far more likely to lead to global conflict than standing up to him. When Trump gives his gangster role-model Putin Ukraine, dictators everywhere will know they can invade their neighbours. Xi will eye up Taiwan. Erdogan Turkmenistan. 1930s redux. Putin is a psycho but he is not irrational. He will not use nuclear weapons. Russia would be destroyed.
I don’t really know what more I can say. The fact that terrible things happen to children on a daily basis around the world still doesn’t change the fact that if we lose our ability to speak freely, we lose our ability to challenge our governments. Yes, to me that is a much larger issue than trying to come up with legislation to protect everyone at all times. I stand by it 1000%.
The media you have suggested here to back up your claims is useful simply for an understanding of what the mainstream narrative is. All of it needs further interrogation. I’m not against looking at all sources, I just don’t know why you’d think they’re accurate. You may have trust left in these media organizations but I have seen no reason to trust them for reasons I’ve already stated.
I think there is a very good reason why so many people think the election was stolen in 2020 and it’s because the math doesn’t add up. There are so many oddities to the story and I can’t understand for the life of me why we play games with voting procedure. I think early voting should not be allowed. I think vote by mail should not be allowed unless you are a U.S. citizen overseas and cannot return home in time. I think everyone should have the day off or at least the ability to take leave and cast their vote and I think every vote needs to be counted on election night. It’s as though it was planned for confusion.
Roe v Wade has been controversial since its inception and there was always a very high probability it would come to be challenged.
I think I’ve reached the limit of what this conversation is able to uncover. We have very different leanings here and deeply disagree on most all that has been discussed.
We overlap in agreeing election day should be a national holiday. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats support this. Republicans oppose it unanimously. They typically enact legislation to make voting harder because they higher the turn-out the worse they do. In Georgia where poor, black people often have to queue for five hours to vote, they passed a law to ban people giving them water.
On everything else we disagree. I find support for Trump morally reprehensible and on the case of moral people, pathological not logical.
You haven't named a single authoritarian policy. I think you've bought into a fantasy frankly.
I find it deeply bypassy and frankly morally objectionable that you pretend that the issue of child (and 65,000 others) rape victims being forced to bear their rapist's children is just bad things that happen under any government. These are real people who will be hurt by a specific policy. A policy your vote will support. You and the Trump cult will be morally responsible for the suffering of the next victims of this grotesque, medieval policy.
Re media. I've used a range of sources including the centre right Forbes. This stuff about narratives is a bland and shallow take. If legacy media makes false claims then it becomes a story, their competitors make it so. Random sites can bullshit with impunity. Eshewing legacy media and using random sources is like not drinking municipal tap water for health reasons and drinking from random puddles. You've given no sources and made a number of inaccurate claims. I don't think your support of Trump is based on reality.
Project 2025 is actual authoritarianism. You show zero interest. I find it hard to take your opinion seriously. It seems as insubstantial as it is impervious to reason. And these Trump fantasies will cause great harm.
My concern about Dems re: rights is that you hear Hillary Clinton day on national television that those who spread misinformation should be prosecuted. You hear Tim Walz say that the first amendment does not protect hate speech. Of course it does. As a lawyer you should know that the first amendment protects both of those things. This is the party who coerced Facebook into censoring Americans during Covid. These are just a handful of examples. I don’t see the same animus amongst republicans to censor and control information.
I looked through your sources and it strikes me that most of them are left leaning media outlets. The entire media leans heavily in favor of the democrats and heavily against Trump. These are media outlets that have promoted the Steel Dossier and Russiagate pandemonium. They killed the Hunter Biden laptop story that we now know isn’t “russian disinformation.”
I guess I have observed this happen so many times that I can no longer trust anything they tell me. That seems like a reasonable response to continuously being lied to.
And again - that propublica story about this mother who tragically died from sepsis was not a result of the abortion law in Georgia. They have exceptions for that exact situation. Clearly defined exceptions. You can read it in the law. I agree it’s awful but it isn’t a political talking point. I actually find it reprehensible that it’s being used as such. There’s a lot of nuance in there. We can’t know her previous health history. To just say she died because of an abortion ban is just simply not accurate.
Salon is another such publication that has made it their job to get democrats elected. These are not objective sources.
I favor Matt Taibbi. I think his reporting is near impeccable and he admits when he got something wrong. A green flag from my stand point.
I think Glenn Greenwald is fair and reports well on free speech issues and government corruption.
Im interested in reporters that report fairly.
I have watched our press turn into a vicious attack dog for the establishment.
They have not challenged Kamala on anything meaningful that I can tell. They have completely lost credibility and I’m not sure they can earn it back.
The courts are losing their credibility too. Now the media can say “Trump is a convicted felon” when really what happened was the court was used to neuter a political opponent. It’s reprehensible. You are telling me that creepy comments he has made are a more important factor than the fact that all around us our systems of law and Justice, our free press, our constitutional rights are being made a mockery of. We have a regime right now that is pushing for a nuclear conflict, full stop, rather than deescalating. We have a regime that installed a candidate with no voting process. And if you want to split hairs here - if Trump claimed the election was stolen….what the hell do you call what happened in 2016. Every media outlet, many democrats just simply decided Trump “isn’t my president.” They blamed it on everything but their inability to appeal to a large portion of the country which they conveniently labeled “deplorable” so as to not have to listen to them. This is part of what woke me the hell up to the depth of institutional dishonesty.
The republic is indeed being threatened but not by Trump. I don’t think he’s some kind of second coming. I don’t think he’s here to fight demons or liberate us. I don’t think he’s a particularly good person. But he’s made it this far. He has people I trust deeply around him - people that have given up much to tell the truth. To me he seems like a last ditch effort to break up the consolidation of power in Washington. He’s a disruption to business as usual. There is much I don’t agree with. I don’t feel like I need to defend every bizarre, gross, or mean comment he’s ever made, I feel like I’ve stated that repeatedly. Just because I would vote for a politician doesn’t mean I agree with everything they’ve ever said or done.
It’s possible we may never see eye to eye here and that’s fine with me. But from what I can see you are drinking from the same poisoned well of information that has brought us to the brink.
Re sources - I don't think your filter is nuanced enough. Sure Salon is progressive editorially that doesn't mean it's reporting of what Kelly said is inaccurate. It is widely reported elsewhere. Media across the free world accurately reports Trump as a sexual predator, a fraudster and a liar. Among other things. That's not anti-Trump. It is pro-reality.
Re 'Russiagate' - I wonder how nuanced your view is here too. The Mueller Report conclusively found that Russia was absolutely interfering in the election and that Trump's campaign had multiple meetings with them. "Collsuion" as a legal term is a very high bar and was unproven. Not exoneration. Unproven.
": Mueller spent almost 200 pages describing “numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.” He found that “a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” He also found that “a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations” against the Clinton campaign and then released stolen documents.
While Mueller was unable to establish a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians involved in this activity, he made it clear that “[a] statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.” In fact, Mueller also wrote that the “investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts.” https://time.com/5610317/mueller-report-myths-breakdown/
Re the mother (one of two) who died in Georgia, where are you getting your info?
"According to ProPublica, Thurman became pregnant with twins unexpectedly in 2022 and faced roadblocks to receiving reproductive care due to the state's ban. She went to North Carolina for a medication abortion but experienced rare complications after taking the prescribed abortion pills.
Thurman became septic in the hospital due to excess tissue in her uterus that did not shed from her body, causing a serious infection. Thurman needed a dilation and curettage, or D&C, a procedure in which tissue is removed from inside the uterus. However, Georgia's ban considers a D&C a felony if performed outside of specific circumstances and could land doctors behind bars for up to 10 years.
Thurman's health deteriorated for 20 hours before doctors finally took her to surgery. By then, it was too late, ProPublica's reporting says. Her heart stopped on the table.
Re freedom of speech. As per Alex Jones' freedom to lie for money about Sandy Hook, the grieving parents were free to sue the lying bastard.
Hate speech in most countries means incitement to violence. In Myanmar false stories were spread online about the Rohingya people, who were massacred as a result. A genocide. Do you disagree that those who incite violence should be prosecuted? Do you think people posting things likely to incite violence (eg the Jews are murdering Christian children in ritual sacrifice, we must rise up and rid ourselves of this Satanic menace, by force, blood for blood") should be prevented from doing so in anyway?
Do you think a guy putting up a sign saying "Swimming hole, Alligator free" while knowing the water was full of alligators should be able to do so? Knowingly spreading misinformation entirely likely to cause harm?
What about the issue of the hateful, racist conspiracy theories being broadcast by a billionaire on the media platform they own? Due to his extreme wealth he is almost infinitely more free than others. By this definition.
Re Tabibi and Greenwald. Both smart guys and great narrative weavers. Neither are accountable to editorial fact checking or have any obligation to provide balance. I know Tabibi less well. But Greenwald jumped the shark years ago and has become like a teenager who thinks his parents (progressives) are the worst while ignoring the rapist next door.
I asked for specific authoritarian measures by the Democrats. You gave two things they allegedly said. That's very weak evidence for a government in power. What have they DONE that is authoritarian in the last four years?
"In 2020, the Trump administration threatened to use force to quell protests, and actually did deploy federal agents and National Guard troops who arrested and used excessive force against protestors and journalists. If Trump secures a second term, this abuse of power is likely to recur and even escalate. Trump has already indicated that his administration would consider invoking the Insurrection Act to deploy the military to America’s cities — potentially targeting those with large BIPOC and immigrant communities — to suppress the right to protest. Trump has also indicated that his administration would attack online free expression by forcing media companies and online platforms to carry conservatives’ preferred speech.
As president, with federal law enforcement agencies under his control, Trump could carry out attacks on advocacy organizations and individuals he opposes. Indeed, on the campaign trail, Trump has praised violent crackdowns on campus protests, aligning with his previous attacks on academic freedom. In particular, he has threatened to deport student protestors who are not U.S. citizens, merging his attacks on free speech with his attacks on immigration. We also expect Trump to use his authority to further target media members and the freedom of the press to suppress negative stories about him or his administration.
Furthermore, Project 2025 has made clear that a second Trump administration intends to dismantle the already insufficient guardrails that prevent the president from abusing the executive branch’s power. The Supreme Court already removed one such guardrail in Trump v. United States, ruling that the president cannot be criminally prosecuted for “official acts,” including using the Justice Department for his personal and political bidding. Trump can use a politicized Justice Department and the vast array of federal agencies to attack voters, protestors, journalists, abortion care providers and patients, his political opponents and any others he perceives as “enemies.” Even now, Trump allies in Congress are trying to use their investigative tools to chill free speech, including targeting civil society organizations and activists engaged in protected advocacy, such as opposing the war in Gaza or supporting LGBTQ rights.
The dangers of the federal government targeting its opponents and vulnerable populations are multiplied by mass surveillance mechanisms that the ACLU has long fought to constrain. A second Trump administration could leverage surveillance programs such as Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which authorizes the collection of communications between U.S. persons and people outside the United States, and which Congress has dangerously expanded to allow the government to search Americans’ private communications and information without a warrant and without notice.
Why It Matters: By punishing political enemies and stifling protest and dissent, a second Trump administration would break many of the checks and balances on the executive branch, and undermine the foundations of a functioning democracy. A second Trump administration will also pose a threat to our historic American tradition of robust, open political competition marked by spirited dissent and the foundational notion that the people have the final say."
I honestly think anyone who can read that and still think Trump is the right man to lead the country is in some kind of denial, trauma bond or delusion.
I can see we have very different perspectives here and I respect yours, while I also deeply disagree.
We can get into the weeds here if you’d like but I get the sense you’d like a “gotcha” type moment.
To respond to what you’ve said though:
Trump did not stack the courts. He appointed who he appointed which is well within his job responsibilities. There is much talk amongst democrats about adding Supreme Court justices which is quite literally packing the courts. I agree that Trump says a lot of things I don’t necessarily agree with. He says many things I wish he wouldn’t say. What I will say though is that he is not more creepy to me than the Clinton’s, let’s say. Creepiness seems to be the personality type in politics from what I can see. Many professionals have claimed he is a narcissist and it doesn’t make it so. Consider lots of people have essentially painted him as the second coming of Hitler which is a stretch if I’m being generous. Let’s say he doesn’t hide his worst qualities.
The abortion story I’ve heard cited so frequently over the last days is not a political story. It’s a tragedy and it has nothing to do with being denied abortion. Georgia has exceptions for incest, rape and maternal health. It’s a terrible story but not a political talking point.
And about the GOP bringing us the Patriot Act: it was everyone. There was one congressman who voted against it. One. The Bush/Cheney/old guard has fully endorsed Kamala which tells me quite a lot.
Again, I respect your perspective entirely and that we don’t agree. Just trying to shed light on my point.
I've given loads of sources on this thread. All I stuff I know prior but found sources for while writing. So I don't understand your question about where I get my info from.
Re Hitler comparisons his own VP worried that he was "America's Hitler": https://www.reuters.com/world/us/jd-vance-once-compared-trump-hitler-now-they-are-running-mates-2024-07-15/
I doubt he meant that Trump was genocidal, or wants to invade his neighbours though he's certainly racist.
But like Hitler he's the conductor for a cult of personality fueled by hate and delusion, scapegoats minorities while being backed by big business and he's selling people a false prospectus.
Psychologically both are malignant narcissists.
It has everything to do with abortion. "She showed up at Piedmont Henry Hospital in need of a routine procedure to clear it from her uterus, called a dilation and curettage, or D&C.
But just that summer, her state had made performing the procedure a felony, with few exceptions. Any doctor who violated the new Georgia law could be prosecuted and face up to a decade in prison."
https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-abortion-ban-amber-thurman-death
Why are you denying this?
Trump got Roe V Wade overturned by appointing anti-abortion judges: to of whom lied about their attitude to the law.
" "If it weren't for me, with Roe v. Wade, you wouldn't even be talking about this stuff," Trump said on Wednesday.
"For 54 years they were trying to get Roe v. Wade terminated, and I did it and I'm proud to have done it,""
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-boasts-role-ending-roe-wade-abortion-regulations/story?id=106280890
Why are you denying this?
Trump displays all the characteristics of narcissism, it's perfectly obvious. His boasting, silly lies about cried size, never being wrong, always taking credit, claiming to know more than anyone about anything, impulsiveness, vicious personal attacks, lack of empathy. He is an empty deeply wounded man. He needs care. But he shouldn't be a leader!
His narcissism is displayed in the way he sexually objectifies his daughter.
Re Trump's creepiness:
"
#3: ‘If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father’
During a 2015 interview with Donald Trump for Rolling Stone, reporter Paul Solotaroff praised Ivanka Trump. The soon-to-be president’s response? “Yeah, she’s really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father…”
#2: ‘Is it wrong to be more sexually attracted to your own daughter than your wife’?
Courtesy of a 2016 Buzzfeed News scoop, the (second) creepiest incident of them all.
In an early draft of a piece by Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen, he purportedly wrote that “President-elect Donald Trump once asked, ‘Is it wrong to be more sexually attracted to your own daughter than your wife?’ — but the quote was quietly removed before the syndicated column was published.”
Yes, it’s wrong, Donald.
#1: The absolute worst of them all (and it’s NSFW)
According to a soon-to-be-published book, Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy From the Next Trump, the former president “regularly made lewd comments about his daughter Ivanka and fantasized about what it would be like to have sex with her.”
According to The New Republic, “’Aides said he talked about Ivanka Trump’s breasts, her backside and what it might be like to have sex with her, remarks that once led [former Chief of Staff] John Kelly to remind the president that Ivanka was his daughter,’ Taylor, who served as a Department of Homeland Security chief of staff under Trump, wrote in his book.”"
https://forward.com/schmooze/357185/7-creepy-things-donald-trump-has-said-about-ivanka/
Clinton certainly abused his power by having sex with an intern. He may have been sexually predatory to other women. Nothing proven. Trump has been found guilty of 'grabbing a woman by the pussy' by a jury of his peers. And said these unspeakable things about his daughter.
Theres nothing equivalent to that with Clinton. I think you're letting Trump off the hook with a false equivalence or low expectations.
My stomach turns when I read these things. You?
He's unwell. And poor Ivanka to have a father who reduces her like that. It must feel terribly unsafe.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "gotcha". I'm interested in evidence. That's all. Intuition is the right lens for decisions about our personal lives, to filter through a chaotic media landscape and come to a decision about voting, we need reason, including source evaluation.
I share your concern about rights. How much do you know about Project 2025? It's far worse than the Republican Patriot Act. Which actually 63 Democrats opposed and just three Republicans https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll398.xml
What specifically is your concern about the Dems re rights?
I am avidly reading this thread as the days go along. I would very much like to see a response to your comment here, and hope Polyxena responds. I'm looking at evidence and well thought out ideas throughout. Thank you both for your participation in discourse.
I'd like to see that too. My experience those who view Trump favourably know little about him and like it that way. So I'd be surprised if she responds.
It’s not that I view Trump favorably - it’s that the other option is so horrendous I can’t imagine where we would be in another 4 years. I think people are more informed than you think and simply don’t agree with you.
A few children who US voters might bear in mind when they go to the polls.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66116536 “A man has been sentenced to life in prison for the rape of a nine-year-old Ohio girl in a case that made headlines after the victim had to travel to another US state for an abortion.
Gerson Fuentes, 28, pleaded guilty to two felony counts of rape in last year's attack.
The child went to Indiana to terminate the pregnancy after her home state restricted access to the procedure.
It happened after the US Supreme Court overturned abortion rights”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/13-year-old-rape-victim-has-baby-amid-confusion-over-states-abortion-ban/ar-BB1klL3V “Ashley, who was 11 weeks pregnant at the time, said she was raped by a stranger in the yard of the family's home.
"She's just 12. She don't know nothing about having no babies. Nothing," Regina said.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/fighting-lives-women-impact-abortion-restrictions-post-roe/story?id=105563174
But amid confusion over what abortion care is allowed in Mississippi, Regina says she was unaware Ashley qualified for an abortion in Mississippi under the law's exception for cases of rape. Yet, even if she was aware, it's unlikely Ashley would have been able to get an abortion in Mississippi; with heavy restrictions in effect and the high penalties on physicians who violate the abortion ban, it is unlikely she would have found a doctor willing to perform a procedure.”
You might imagine how and if you could explain to these children that your concerns about freedom of speech were more important than their capacity to choose.
I disagree. There are millions of Americans who have diabetes because of poor diet choices. There are millions of American who have distorted views because they don't know how to evaluate the media consume. 2/3rds of Republicans believe the 2020 election was stolen https://theconversation.com/why-do-millions-of-americans-believe-the-2020-presidential-election-was-stolen-from-donald-trump-224016 - which was simply a lie and has been proven so multiple times in court. Including Fox 'News' paying out 787m dollars for knowingly spreading this lie (freedom of speech, even to lie but not freedom from the consequences of speech).
You yourself believed Trump to be a moderate on abortion who was somehow not responsible for ending Roe vs Wade. And that he was not linked to Project 2025. No doubt those interpretations were based on what you consumed. And I believe I have demonstrated conclusively that there is solid evidence that on abortion he is not a moderate, that he took ownership of the decision and celebrated it. And that he knows and is alignment with the architects of Project 2025.
And there are millions of Americans with diabetes because we have an industrial good system that is based on food-stuffs and not nutrition. All backed up by a medical establishment that receives donations from the same industries making people sick. The food pyramid is based on garbage science that has been disproven time and again. Meanwhile it is used to create school lunches and dietary recommendations that Americans had largely followed since it was created.
It’s interesting you phrased it that way- it’s generally those that lean conservative that place a high premium on personal responsibility. I have a feeling you wouldn’t have used that language to refer to the many impoverished children of color in inner cities that simply do not have access to nutritious food and thus have little possibility of making appropriate dietary choices.
Sounds like you are completely unaware of actual policy. Trump and Project 2025 will end consumer protection and leave Americans less informed about the garbage in their food. Walz gave free lunches and breakfast kids in his state. The Republicans are trying to ban it https://theintercept.com/2024/03/21/house-republicans-ban-universal-school-lunches/ it's actually tragic that you are voting so far against your stated values. And against common decency. Racist rapists shouldn't be rewarded with power. That's a sign of a truly sick culture.
Like I said, I’m not really sure where to go from here. I’ve shared my perspective to the best of my ability. You have intense animus toward the Republican Party which I suppose is fair. But also the president doesn’t control what congress does. I think undernourished children should absolutely have free meals at school. I am also not a Republican and don’t wholesale agree with every policy or piece of legislation. Nor did I agree with everything the democrats wanted back when I identified as one. Throughout this thread I feel I have repeated myself many times and haven’t received much good faith response to those comments.
I am not under the illusion that any party will save America. I don’t think any one person will make or break us. I am voting against a regime that is hostile to the citizens of this country and the rights granted us by our own founding documents. I am voting against a fool hardy war in the Ukraine which has the potential for an incendiary world war. I am voting against a media that is nearly 100 percent in bed with the Democratic Party and the beltway establishment at large.
I will end by saying I may well be dead wrong about Donald Trump. Maybe he is indeed Satan risen as he has been described since he became a political figure. I can’t know these things for sure. And frankly I’m rather suspicious in these times of increasing obfuscation of anyone that is so certain of their own beliefs.
I wish you well and thanks for attempting a discussion.
Again you make this claim the the Democrats are attacking right. Three times I've asked you to name these policies. You've not responded. Nor responded to whether you think it should be protected speech to incite hatred and violence or to knowing misinform in such a way as to cause predictable harm. I've done my best to respond to each point you've made, with sources to evidence my points. You're claim that I'm not in good faith seems like a projection to me.
I did say what I thought they were attacking. You’re welcome to read back through. I’m done.
I wish you well. And I hope that for the sake of rape victims, ordinary women who simply want an abortion, hungry children, gay people who want to marry or simply tell the truth about who they are (Project 2025 aims to prevent both, if you are unaware and care you should educate yourself), little girls and boys who need a decent person and not a rapist as a role model and leader of the nation Trump loses and is I hope imprisoned. And I hope his cultists and those suckered by manipulative narratives wake up before it’s too late.
Ps re Ukraine - appeasing Putin (Trump will simply hand-over Ukraine, I have friends on the frontline fighting for their lives and home) is far more likely to lead to global conflict than standing up to him. When Trump gives his gangster role-model Putin Ukraine, dictators everywhere will know they can invade their neighbours. Xi will eye up Taiwan. Erdogan Turkmenistan. 1930s redux. Putin is a psycho but he is not irrational. He will not use nuclear weapons. Russia would be destroyed.
I don’t really know what more I can say. The fact that terrible things happen to children on a daily basis around the world still doesn’t change the fact that if we lose our ability to speak freely, we lose our ability to challenge our governments. Yes, to me that is a much larger issue than trying to come up with legislation to protect everyone at all times. I stand by it 1000%.
The media you have suggested here to back up your claims is useful simply for an understanding of what the mainstream narrative is. All of it needs further interrogation. I’m not against looking at all sources, I just don’t know why you’d think they’re accurate. You may have trust left in these media organizations but I have seen no reason to trust them for reasons I’ve already stated.
I think there is a very good reason why so many people think the election was stolen in 2020 and it’s because the math doesn’t add up. There are so many oddities to the story and I can’t understand for the life of me why we play games with voting procedure. I think early voting should not be allowed. I think vote by mail should not be allowed unless you are a U.S. citizen overseas and cannot return home in time. I think everyone should have the day off or at least the ability to take leave and cast their vote and I think every vote needs to be counted on election night. It’s as though it was planned for confusion.
Roe v Wade has been controversial since its inception and there was always a very high probability it would come to be challenged.
I think I’ve reached the limit of what this conversation is able to uncover. We have very different leanings here and deeply disagree on most all that has been discussed.
Do you find there is any place you agree with me?
Is there anywhere we overlap in our beliefs?
We overlap in agreeing election day should be a national holiday. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats support this. Republicans oppose it unanimously. They typically enact legislation to make voting harder because they higher the turn-out the worse they do. In Georgia where poor, black people often have to queue for five hours to vote, they passed a law to ban people giving them water.
On everything else we disagree. I find support for Trump morally reprehensible and on the case of moral people, pathological not logical.
You haven't named a single authoritarian policy. I think you've bought into a fantasy frankly.
I find it deeply bypassy and frankly morally objectionable that you pretend that the issue of child (and 65,000 others) rape victims being forced to bear their rapist's children is just bad things that happen under any government. These are real people who will be hurt by a specific policy. A policy your vote will support. You and the Trump cult will be morally responsible for the suffering of the next victims of this grotesque, medieval policy.
Re media. I've used a range of sources including the centre right Forbes. This stuff about narratives is a bland and shallow take. If legacy media makes false claims then it becomes a story, their competitors make it so. Random sites can bullshit with impunity. Eshewing legacy media and using random sources is like not drinking municipal tap water for health reasons and drinking from random puddles. You've given no sources and made a number of inaccurate claims. I don't think your support of Trump is based on reality.
Project 2025 is actual authoritarianism. You show zero interest. I find it hard to take your opinion seriously. It seems as insubstantial as it is impervious to reason. And these Trump fantasies will cause great harm.
Totally. Thanks for this
My concern about Dems re: rights is that you hear Hillary Clinton day on national television that those who spread misinformation should be prosecuted. You hear Tim Walz say that the first amendment does not protect hate speech. Of course it does. As a lawyer you should know that the first amendment protects both of those things. This is the party who coerced Facebook into censoring Americans during Covid. These are just a handful of examples. I don’t see the same animus amongst republicans to censor and control information.
I looked through your sources and it strikes me that most of them are left leaning media outlets. The entire media leans heavily in favor of the democrats and heavily against Trump. These are media outlets that have promoted the Steel Dossier and Russiagate pandemonium. They killed the Hunter Biden laptop story that we now know isn’t “russian disinformation.”
I guess I have observed this happen so many times that I can no longer trust anything they tell me. That seems like a reasonable response to continuously being lied to.
And again - that propublica story about this mother who tragically died from sepsis was not a result of the abortion law in Georgia. They have exceptions for that exact situation. Clearly defined exceptions. You can read it in the law. I agree it’s awful but it isn’t a political talking point. I actually find it reprehensible that it’s being used as such. There’s a lot of nuance in there. We can’t know her previous health history. To just say she died because of an abortion ban is just simply not accurate.
Salon is another such publication that has made it their job to get democrats elected. These are not objective sources.
I favor Matt Taibbi. I think his reporting is near impeccable and he admits when he got something wrong. A green flag from my stand point.
I think Glenn Greenwald is fair and reports well on free speech issues and government corruption.
Im interested in reporters that report fairly.
I have watched our press turn into a vicious attack dog for the establishment.
They have not challenged Kamala on anything meaningful that I can tell. They have completely lost credibility and I’m not sure they can earn it back.
The courts are losing their credibility too. Now the media can say “Trump is a convicted felon” when really what happened was the court was used to neuter a political opponent. It’s reprehensible. You are telling me that creepy comments he has made are a more important factor than the fact that all around us our systems of law and Justice, our free press, our constitutional rights are being made a mockery of. We have a regime right now that is pushing for a nuclear conflict, full stop, rather than deescalating. We have a regime that installed a candidate with no voting process. And if you want to split hairs here - if Trump claimed the election was stolen….what the hell do you call what happened in 2016. Every media outlet, many democrats just simply decided Trump “isn’t my president.” They blamed it on everything but their inability to appeal to a large portion of the country which they conveniently labeled “deplorable” so as to not have to listen to them. This is part of what woke me the hell up to the depth of institutional dishonesty.
The republic is indeed being threatened but not by Trump. I don’t think he’s some kind of second coming. I don’t think he’s here to fight demons or liberate us. I don’t think he’s a particularly good person. But he’s made it this far. He has people I trust deeply around him - people that have given up much to tell the truth. To me he seems like a last ditch effort to break up the consolidation of power in Washington. He’s a disruption to business as usual. There is much I don’t agree with. I don’t feel like I need to defend every bizarre, gross, or mean comment he’s ever made, I feel like I’ve stated that repeatedly. Just because I would vote for a politician doesn’t mean I agree with everything they’ve ever said or done.
It’s possible we may never see eye to eye here and that’s fine with me. But from what I can see you are drinking from the same poisoned well of information that has brought us to the brink.
Re sources - I don't think your filter is nuanced enough. Sure Salon is progressive editorially that doesn't mean it's reporting of what Kelly said is inaccurate. It is widely reported elsewhere. Media across the free world accurately reports Trump as a sexual predator, a fraudster and a liar. Among other things. That's not anti-Trump. It is pro-reality.
Re 'Russiagate' - I wonder how nuanced your view is here too. The Mueller Report conclusively found that Russia was absolutely interfering in the election and that Trump's campaign had multiple meetings with them. "Collsuion" as a legal term is a very high bar and was unproven. Not exoneration. Unproven.
": Mueller spent almost 200 pages describing “numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.” He found that “a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” He also found that “a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations” against the Clinton campaign and then released stolen documents.
While Mueller was unable to establish a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians involved in this activity, he made it clear that “[a] statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.” In fact, Mueller also wrote that the “investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts.” https://time.com/5610317/mueller-report-myths-breakdown/
Re the mother (one of two) who died in Georgia, where are you getting your info?
"According to ProPublica, Thurman became pregnant with twins unexpectedly in 2022 and faced roadblocks to receiving reproductive care due to the state's ban. She went to North Carolina for a medication abortion but experienced rare complications after taking the prescribed abortion pills.
Thurman became septic in the hospital due to excess tissue in her uterus that did not shed from her body, causing a serious infection. Thurman needed a dilation and curettage, or D&C, a procedure in which tissue is removed from inside the uterus. However, Georgia's ban considers a D&C a felony if performed outside of specific circumstances and could land doctors behind bars for up to 10 years.
Thurman's health deteriorated for 20 hours before doctors finally took her to surgery. By then, it was too late, ProPublica's reporting says. Her heart stopped on the table.
Thurman's death was "preventable," according to Georgia’s maternal mortality review committee, which said the hospital's delay in providing the D&C due to state law "had a large impact on her fatal outcome," ProPublica reports." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/09/20/amber-thurman-georgia-abortion-law-propublica-investigation/75291366007/
Re freedom of speech. As per Alex Jones' freedom to lie for money about Sandy Hook, the grieving parents were free to sue the lying bastard.
Hate speech in most countries means incitement to violence. In Myanmar false stories were spread online about the Rohingya people, who were massacred as a result. A genocide. Do you disagree that those who incite violence should be prosecuted? Do you think people posting things likely to incite violence (eg the Jews are murdering Christian children in ritual sacrifice, we must rise up and rid ourselves of this Satanic menace, by force, blood for blood") should be prevented from doing so in anyway?
Do you think a guy putting up a sign saying "Swimming hole, Alligator free" while knowing the water was full of alligators should be able to do so? Knowingly spreading misinformation entirely likely to cause harm?
What about the issue of the hateful, racist conspiracy theories being broadcast by a billionaire on the media platform they own? Due to his extreme wealth he is almost infinitely more free than others. By this definition.
This is a very illuminating read on the free speech issue. It is far from clear cut https://substack.com/home/post/p-149202158?source=queue
Re Tabibi and Greenwald. Both smart guys and great narrative weavers. Neither are accountable to editorial fact checking or have any obligation to provide balance. I know Tabibi less well. But Greenwald jumped the shark years ago and has become like a teenager who thinks his parents (progressives) are the worst while ignoring the rapist next door.
I asked for specific authoritarian measures by the Democrats. You gave two things they allegedly said. That's very weak evidence for a government in power. What have they DONE that is authoritarian in the last four years?
As for Trump - he is an actual authoritarian and Project 2025 is an authoritarian project (including ruling over women's bodies) https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/how-trumps-proposed-radical-expansion-of-executive-power-will-impact-our-freedoms
"In 2020, the Trump administration threatened to use force to quell protests, and actually did deploy federal agents and National Guard troops who arrested and used excessive force against protestors and journalists. If Trump secures a second term, this abuse of power is likely to recur and even escalate. Trump has already indicated that his administration would consider invoking the Insurrection Act to deploy the military to America’s cities — potentially targeting those with large BIPOC and immigrant communities — to suppress the right to protest. Trump has also indicated that his administration would attack online free expression by forcing media companies and online platforms to carry conservatives’ preferred speech.
As president, with federal law enforcement agencies under his control, Trump could carry out attacks on advocacy organizations and individuals he opposes. Indeed, on the campaign trail, Trump has praised violent crackdowns on campus protests, aligning with his previous attacks on academic freedom. In particular, he has threatened to deport student protestors who are not U.S. citizens, merging his attacks on free speech with his attacks on immigration. We also expect Trump to use his authority to further target media members and the freedom of the press to suppress negative stories about him or his administration.
Furthermore, Project 2025 has made clear that a second Trump administration intends to dismantle the already insufficient guardrails that prevent the president from abusing the executive branch’s power. The Supreme Court already removed one such guardrail in Trump v. United States, ruling that the president cannot be criminally prosecuted for “official acts,” including using the Justice Department for his personal and political bidding. Trump can use a politicized Justice Department and the vast array of federal agencies to attack voters, protestors, journalists, abortion care providers and patients, his political opponents and any others he perceives as “enemies.” Even now, Trump allies in Congress are trying to use their investigative tools to chill free speech, including targeting civil society organizations and activists engaged in protected advocacy, such as opposing the war in Gaza or supporting LGBTQ rights.
The dangers of the federal government targeting its opponents and vulnerable populations are multiplied by mass surveillance mechanisms that the ACLU has long fought to constrain. A second Trump administration could leverage surveillance programs such as Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which authorizes the collection of communications between U.S. persons and people outside the United States, and which Congress has dangerously expanded to allow the government to search Americans’ private communications and information without a warrant and without notice.
Why It Matters: By punishing political enemies and stifling protest and dissent, a second Trump administration would break many of the checks and balances on the executive branch, and undermine the foundations of a functioning democracy. A second Trump administration will also pose a threat to our historic American tradition of robust, open political competition marked by spirited dissent and the foundational notion that the people have the final say."
To put some hypothetical freedom of speech issue higher up the totem pole than freedom of protest, women's right to choose (this is the impact of Trump's work https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/64-000-pregnancies-caused-by-rape-have-occurred-in-states-with-a-total-abortion-ban-new-study-estimates/ if you vote for him you are culpable for the suffering of future victims), than the importance of having someone sane, kind, doesn't sexually objectify their child, I think you have some damage to your sense of priority quite honestly.
Half the nation of Germany were in moral error in 1932. And chose very badly. To their long term detriment.
Same for the US in 2024. ‘Yeah, she's really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren't happily married and, ya know, her father . . I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her.".’” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-creepiest-most-unsettling-comments-a-roundup-a7353876.html
I honestly think anyone who can read that and still think Trump is the right man to lead the country is in some kind of denial, trauma bond or delusion.